St. Paul: the epilepsy theory
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... s-BBC.html
Also, epilepsy of the temporal lobe has an associated syndrome called "Geschwind Syndrome," a symptom of which is altered sexuality, usually hyposexuality. To me, this would explain Paul's attitudes regarding sexuality. Hypergraphia would be another symptom of Geschwind Syndrome.
Although I would expect evidence to be at least as sketchy as that supporting claims of Mozart being "autistic," I believe the subject is worth exploring in some detail.
Seizures of the temporal lobe have often caused symptoms similar to those reported by those claiming to have had "religious experiences."
Also, epilepsy of the temporal lobe has an associated syndrome called "Geschwind Syndrome," a symptom of which is altered sexuality, usually hyposexuality. To me, this would explain Paul's attitudes regarding sexuality. Hypergraphia would be another symptom of Geschwind Syndrome.
Although I would expect evidence to be at least as sketchy as that supporting claims of Mozart being "autistic," I believe the subject is worth exploring in some detail.
Seizures of the temporal lobe have often caused symptoms similar to those reported by those claiming to have had "religious experiences."
the frontal lobe thing is very interesting
but using quick application of Occam's razor gives us the Paul is a fraud theory.
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We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??
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AngelRho
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the burden is on the side of thinking Paul had a supernatural experience.
One someone says they saw a ghost it is up to them to show they are
not lying or insane. I am not honor bound to believe them.
_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??
http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/
but using quick application of Occam's razor gives us the Paul is a fraud theory.
The theory that he was a fraud implies an unfounded assumption that he invented these experiences out of whole cloth, and then we are left speculating as to why he would do so. The theory that he actually believed what he was saying is simpler. It doesn't on its own imply any explanation as to why. It just implies the simple assumption that Paul believed what he was saying on some level.
The epilepsy theory is only one of many possibilities, but it would carry a certain degree of weight if Paul's description of his experiences fit in neatly with the diagnostic criteria for a certain type of epilepsy.
I simply felt that it was interesting enough to merit discussion.
AngelRho
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the burden is on the side of thinking Paul had a supernatural experience.
It most certainly is not--not in THIS thread. WilliamWDelaney suggested epilepsy was the cause, as well as possible Geschwind Syndrome. You claim Paul is a fraud, or at least that's how I read you. Correct me if I misunderstand, of course. Do you have falsifiable evidence to support your claim or don't you?
not lying or insane. I am not honor bound to believe them.
I agree. But that is not what is being said here.
the burden is on the side of thinking Paul had a supernatural experience.
One someone says they saw a ghost it is up to them to show they are
not lying or insane. I am not honor bound to believe them.
The question is, was Paul asking you or me to believe him? My name was not on the distribution list of any of his letters.
If I say there are orioles nesting in our yard [skittish but lovely, they come back every year] do I need to provide evidence I am not lying or insane? Just asking so I can tpe defensively.
Where on WP are we supposed to post our certificates of honesty and sanity?
Intriguing that mistaken or under chemical influence are not options.
AND - trying to cover the bases and baser parts - if one of us does NOT see something do we need to say that our failure to see is not lying or insane?
I had to go and ask about rules of evidence!
the burden is on the side of thinking Paul had a supernatural experience.
One someone says they saw a ghost it is up to them to show they are
not lying or insane. I am not honor bound to believe them.
There are no "supernatural experiences". All events and processes are physical effects of physical causes. To say something is supernatural is a mis-identification.
ruveyn
AngelRho
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but using quick application of Occam's razor gives us the Paul is a fraud theory.
The theory that he was a fraud implies an unfounded assumption that he invented these experiences out of whole cloth, and then we are left speculating as to why he would do so. The theory that he actually believed what he was saying is simpler. It doesn't on its own imply any explanation as to why. It just implies the simple assumption that Paul believed what he was saying on some level.
The epilepsy theory is only one of many possibilities, but it would carry a certain degree of weight if Paul's description of his experiences fit in neatly with the diagnostic criteria for a certain type of epilepsy.
I simply felt that it was interesting enough to merit discussion.
Absolutely. Thanks for that on the infamous razor--I was just thinking the same thing but was hoping someone else would bring it up. I do need to actually read the article you posted, but I strongly suspect that the theory, which really isn't more than a hypothesis, suffers for lack of evidence--as will any ancient discussion of a topic when looking for evidence external to itself. I personally do not have a problem reviewing the Bible as a documented accounting of events, and even in modern times those kinds of things don't leave evidence of themselves. If we're talking science, you don't really "know" a certain experiment produced certain results unless you were the one performing the experiment--but we do trust peer-reviewed journal articles that compile the data in question. So it isn't unreasonable to believe words from the past. It's a matter of choosing whether you want to believe that evidence or reject it.
If you can accept New Testament accounts as reliable, i.e. a record of what people witnessed, then you MIGHT have falsifiable evidence that Paul was at least momentarily insane or at worst a fraud. But you really need the man himself if you want a "diagnosis." There's also the question of whether God can use anatomical anomalies to convey the message He's trying to send. Paul himself COULD have said, "No, wait--that's ridiculous. I don't know what happened to me, but it wasn't God." People even back in those days recognized the difference between, say, demon possession and outright dementia, even if they lacked the means to explain mental illness. What the Bible seems to relate about Paul's experience and his subsequent writings suggests that he spent a lot of time in the care of more mature and experienced Christians who knew enough to confirm that Paul was clearly shaken by what happened but was otherwise ok and could be trusted in spite of his past. Refuting experiences that had been confirmed by his contemporaries by trying to apply modern diagnoses without any external evidence is going to run into some ad hoc problems.
AngelRho
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It took me a while to get it, too, but it's useful. The burden of proof is ALWAYS on the one making the claim. Paul is not here to make the claim. But someone else here is making claims about Paul. It is up to that person to provide evidence that such really happened. I have yet to see the evidence, but the thread is young!
the burden is on the side of thinking Paul had a supernatural experience.
It most certainly is not--not in THIS thread. WilliamWDelaney suggested epilepsy was the cause, as well as possible Geschwind Syndrome. You claim Paul is a fraud, or at least that's how I read you. Correct me if I misunderstand, of course. Do you have falsifiable evidence to support your claim or don't you?
http://www.neurology.org/content/68/23/1995.short
Furthermore, a seizure aura is often associated with intense visual hallucinations.
http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/123/2/244.short
Also, auditory hallucinations are common as part of seizure events, as Didi here would testify.
https://www.epilepsy.com/node/983566
Another thing that I would like to point to is Paul's attitudes on sexuality.
8 Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
Now, although there are many possible explanations for Paul's attitudes on sexuality, it is relevant to this thinking exercise that hyposexuality is a common symptom of epilepsy. It is a part of Geschwind Syndrome, which is a symptomatic syndrome associated with certain kinds of epilepsy.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script= ... 1000100006
Hyposexuality wouldn't be the only symptom of Geschwind Syndrome observed in Paul's behavior, though! He also tended to carry on talking for abnormally long periods!
Pedantism is one of many interictal symptoms of epilepsy, as written here:
http://justopenyoureyes-insaneblogger.b ... lepsy.html
And those affected with TLE might also exhibit heightened interpersonal viscosity, not associated with elevated social cohesion but due to "interictal language disturbances."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC488981/
Of course, this isn't intended to dismiss other possible explanations for Paul's behavior but merely to propose one of many possible theories as to why he behaved in the way that he did. It's not even necessary to dismiss the possibility that he was both epileptic and actually did have a supernatural revelation, at least not anymore so than without this line of speculation. Again, this is supposed to be a speculative, exploratory discussion.
However, Paul the Apostle wouldn't be the first religious leader to have suffered from an epileptic condition. In fact, indigenous people from arctic climates, particularly observers of Tengriism, choose their religious leaders in this way routinely:
http://www.nakquda.com/essays/religion/ ... ckness.pdf
I approve.
leejosepho
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If that is so, then what explanation might there be for a series of "presence of thought" (my term, and actually a bit of a misnomer) experiences I once had (over the course of a week) that resulted in my "being given" (my claim) some specific information I had been consciously seeking and that absolutely could not have come from within my own mind?
Note: None of the above has anything to do with my recovery experience we are all tired of rehashing.
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==================================
the burden is on the side of thinking Paul had a supernatural experience.
It most certainly is not--not in THIS thread. WilliamWDelaney suggested epilepsy was the cause, as well as possible Geschwind Syndrome. You claim Paul is a fraud, or at least that's how I read you. Correct me if I misunderstand, of course. Do you have falsifiable evidence to support your claim or don't you?
http://www.neurology.org/content/68/23/1995.short
Furthermore, a seizure aura is often associated with intense visual hallucinations.
http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/123/2/244.short
Also, auditory hallucinations are common as part of seizure events, as Didi here would testify.
https://www.epilepsy.com/node/983566
Another thing that I would like to point to is Paul's attitudes on sexuality.
8 Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
Now, although there are many possible explanations for Paul's attitudes on sexuality, it is relevant to this thinking exercise that hyposexuality is a common symptom of epilepsy. It is a part of Geschwind Syndrome, which is a symptomatic syndrome associated with certain kinds of epilepsy.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script= ... 1000100006
Hyposexuality wouldn't be the only symptom of Geschwind Syndrome observed in Paul's behavior, though! He also tended to carry on talking for abnormally long periods!
Pedantism is one of many interictal symptoms of epilepsy, as written here:
http://justopenyoureyes-insaneblogger.b ... lepsy.html
And those affected with TLE might also exhibit heightened interpersonal viscosity, not associated with elevated social cohesion but due to "interictal language disturbances."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC488981/
Of course, this isn't intended to dismiss other possible explanations for Paul's behavior but merely to propose one of many possible theories as to why he behaved in the way that he did. It's not even necessary to dismiss the possibility that he was both epileptic and actually did have a supernatural revelation, at least not anymore so than without this line of speculation. Again, this is supposed to be a speculative, exploratory discussion.
However, Paul the Apostle wouldn't be the first religious leader to have suffered from an epileptic condition. In fact, indigenous people from arctic climates, particularly observers of Tengriism, choose their religious leaders in this way routinely:
http://www.nakquda.com/essays/religion/ ... ckness.pdf
I approve.
I agree it could be an interesting conversation. Frontal lobe epilepsy is a very interesting Idea.
I apologize for making it seem I was against discussion.
mental illness is a very important religious wellspring.
the Havasupai value schizophrenia or rather what western culture calls schizophrenia.
I still think Paul was lying but have enough interest in the bastard for a discussion.
_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??
http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/
the burden is on the side of thinking Paul had a supernatural experience.
It most certainly is not--not in THIS thread. WilliamWDelaney suggested epilepsy was the cause, as well as possible Geschwind Syndrome. You claim Paul is a fraud, or at least that's how I read you. Correct me if I misunderstand, of course. Do you have falsifiable evidence to support your claim or don't you?
http://www.neurology.org/content/68/23/1995.short
Furthermore, a seizure aura is often associated with intense visual hallucinations.
http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/123/2/244.short
Also, auditory hallucinations are common as part of seizure events, as Didi here would testify.
https://www.epilepsy.com/node/983566
Another thing that I would like to point to is Paul's attitudes on sexuality.
8 Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
Now, although there are many possible explanations for Paul's attitudes on sexuality, it is relevant to this thinking exercise that hyposexuality is a common symptom of epilepsy. It is a part of Geschwind Syndrome, which is a symptomatic syndrome associated with certain kinds of epilepsy.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script= ... 1000100006
Hyposexuality wouldn't be the only symptom of Geschwind Syndrome observed in Paul's behavior, though! He also tended to carry on talking for abnormally long periods!
Pedantism is one of many interictal symptoms of epilepsy, as written here:
http://justopenyoureyes-insaneblogger.b ... lepsy.html
And those affected with TLE might also exhibit heightened interpersonal viscosity, not associated with elevated social cohesion but due to "interictal language disturbances."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC488981/
Of course, this isn't intended to dismiss other possible explanations for Paul's behavior but merely to propose one of many possible theories as to why he behaved in the way that he did. It's not even necessary to dismiss the possibility that he was both epileptic and actually did have a supernatural revelation, at least not anymore so than without this line of speculation. Again, this is supposed to be a speculative, exploratory discussion.
However, Paul the Apostle wouldn't be the first religious leader to have suffered from an epileptic condition. In fact, indigenous people from arctic climates, particularly observers of Tengriism, choose their religious leaders in this way routinely:
http://www.nakquda.com/essays/religion/ ... ckness.pdf
I approve.
I agree it could be an interesting conversation. Frontal lobe epilepsy is a very interesting Idea.
I apologize for making it seem I was against discussion.
mental illness is a very important religious wellspring.
the Havasupai value schizophrenia or rather what western culture calls schizophrenia.
I still think Paul was lying but have enough interest in the bastard for a discussion.
I also used to get musical ear a lot. That is, random noise would turn into sophisticated melodies.
If that is so, then what explanation might there be for a series of "presence of thought" (my term, and actually a bit of a misnomer) experiences I once had (over the course of a week) that resulted in my "being given" (my claim) some specific information I had been consciously seeking and that absolutely could not have come from within my own mind?
Note: None of the above has anything to do with my recovery experience we are all tired of rehashing.
I know it's probably hard to grasp if you are used to the thoughts in your head lying in neat, orderly rows, that's not how some people's minds are geared. Some of us are just so scatterbrained that it is hard for us to wrap ourselves around one single idea.
I might try sometimes to grab onto one thought stream, but imagine holding a sapling in your hand that has all these limbs on it. Suddenly, as you're holding it, it explodes into a fit of growth, and you lose your grip on the original stem. You have such a tangle suddenly that you have lost track of where the original stem was. Instead, you have all of these shoots going off in totally different directions.
And then you do eventually find the origin of the thing, and you suddenly realize that the thing you started with has relatively little to do with the stuff that it's led to. Instead, you have found a whole lot of reasons to dismiss your original idea out-of-hand, and then you're set with the task of sorting through all of them.
But then assume that you are fickle. Very fickle. As you're sorting through all of the different shoots, you just never find one that says to you, "I am special."
Now, if you are most people, you want to eventually find one that is right and then hold onto it, but if you are me, you can't stop yourself from cross-analyzing and reevaluating and looking for new possibilities. The process keeps going and going and going.
And when you're in that state, imagine you have a glow coming from inside of you, and you get a sense that you can pick things up and throw them about telekinetically. You don't actually believe literally that you can do this, but you just get this sense after a while that is like the feelings that some people get out of some of the better classical-influenced music from the early Romantic Era.
If you can get yourself into this state, it's like you've popped out of the Matrix and been plopped down in the control center, and every thought, every fingertwitch decides the fate of planets. You feel both an incredible sense of power glowing in you but also an overwhelming weight of responsibility. It just feels very important to compose yourself and remain absolutely unemotional and impartial. Whether you are ready for it or want it or not, you are the judge, and there is a sense that the entire universe is screaming and ringing like a bell. At the same time, you know intellectually that you're really just within your own head, and it's not really that big of a deal.
But when this gets really intense, I might start panting for breath a bit, and I feel very queasy. It's like I'm being tickled, and I can't get away from it, only it's not as tactile and is on the inside. And instead of laughing, I might moan weirdly or something. Or I might pound my fist against whatever surface it's resting on.
I'll get very aggressive and irritable, and I invariably start pacing around, grumbling a lot. In some cases, I might take a sudden aimless walk somewhere, and I'll have no idea where I am by the time I've come out of it. This doesn't worry me because there is always someone I can ask for directions.
And then I find somebody later and give him/her a lengthy and detailed diatribe on whatever was on my mind and whatever conclusions I reached while I was in this state. And I won't really be able to help it. It'll just be a strong, overwhelming compulsion. I remember one time yammering to people for days about connections between the immune system and the CNS and the specific attributes of various endogenous opioids connected with both.
Anyway, because of the way that my mindset actually is, I cannot adequately grasp the idea of actually being surprised to find mysterious information in my mind that really shouldn't be there. I don't even go the step of saying to myself, "I'm sure I picked it up somewhere," but I just accept the fact that it's there because I have so completely given up on the idea of my thoughts being in those neat, little rows and stacks that most people seem to have theirs in.
Oh, but the state of consciousness that I was talking about is really cool and trippy. In fact, I was having a minor one when it really struck me like a lightening bolt that old Saul might have been going through epileptic fits. I still am not convinced that this is how it was, but I get enough scent of prey from it that I'm willing to take up the chase.
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