Post 3680828 - (Uniquely Aspie Biblical interpretation?)

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Uniquely Aspie Biblical interpretation?

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leejosepho
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:43 pm Post subject:

pandabear wrote:

... the meaning of the metaphor is clear: it is literally impossible for a rich man to enter Heaven.

Then you call YahuShua a liar when he says this:

"“Truly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter into the reign of the heavens ... "

??

Edit note: Above "??" has been added as a correction of actual intent here.
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Last edited by leejosepho on Fri May 27, 2011 7:00 am; edited 1 time in total

pandabear
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:44 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Some say the needle's eye, or the eye of the needle, was a small gate at the entrance of Jerusalem and other cities. When the city-keepers had locked the main gates, camels and their owners who arrived after hours could squeeze through this gate.

But scholars have searched in vain to find ancient evidence that people referred to any of these gates as “the eye of a needle”.

http://www.creationtips.com/eye_of_needle.html

Natty_Boh
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:52 pm Post subject:

In Lee's take on it, even if there were such a gate, everything loaded on the camel would need to be left behind in order to pass through the gate. The point of the needle stays the same; it fits with Jesus telling the man to sell everything he has; and it makes a bit more sense of an evocative but ludicrous image. _________________ For men are homesick in their homes, And strangers under the sun, And they lay their heads in a foreign land Whenever the day is done."

leejosepho
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:53 pm Post subject:

Natty_Boh wrote:

In Lee's take on it, even if there were such a gate, everything loaded on the camel would need to be left behind in order to pass through the gate. The point of the needle stays the same; it fits with Jesus telling the man to sell everything he has; and it makes a bit more sense of an evocative but ludicrous image.

Yes, but I did not figure that out on my own! Wink

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Last edited by leejosepho on Thu May 26, 2011 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

CaptainTrips222
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:57 pm Post subject:

pandabear wrote:

Here is another version

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_a_needle

Quote:

Some translators have believed that the Greek word for camel (kamilos) is an error and should really be kamêlos, meaning "rope or cable." The imagery of a thick rope is obviously apt, and turns an otherwise bizarre metaphor into a more likely expression. The "rope" version is found in a few modern and medieval (10th and 11th century) New Testament manuscripts, although the "camel" expression is found in earlier non-scriptural Christian writings. Regardless, the meaning of the saying is the same: it is literally impossible to thread either a rope or a camel through the eye of a needle.

Either way, the meaning of the metaphor is clear: it is literally impossible for a rich man to enter Heaven.

Well yeah, I guess either interpretation makes the same point. It's strange how all these verses are so open to linguistic interpretation. The verse in Exodus that deals with letting a witch live doesn't really say that. What they called witch better translates to heretic.

naturalplastic
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 1:53 pm Post subject:

leejosepho wrote:

pandabear wrote:

CaptainTrips222 wrote:

Philologos wrote:

Captaintrips### -

That IS what it means. The "let's not diss the rich man" interpretations are weaseling. There is evidence from outside.

Wait, what? I'm talking about the needle part. Needle refers to a narrow pass; a geological structure. Not a sewing needle.

Some modern preachers, who have made piles of money with their preaching, have reinterpreted the passage to mean a geological structure ...

Interpretation is not what we are seeking here. We are seeking what had first actually been conveyed.

pandabear wrote:

The original meaning is, yes, a sewing needle.

No, that is just an earlier interpretation made by people who also did not understand what had first actually been conveyed.

Edit:

Quote:

And see, one came and said to YahuShua, “... what good shall I do to have everlasting life?”
And He said to him, “... guard the commands ... [and] If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven. And come, follow Me.”
And when the young man heard the word, he went away sad, because he had many possessions.
And YahuShua said to His taught ones, “Truly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter into the reign of the heavens ...

Note: Nothing impossible there ...

And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the reign of Elohim.”

Note: The camel cares nothing about having to leave its unloaded goods behind in order to enter.

And when His taught ones heard it, they were very astonished, saying, “Who then is able to be saved?”
And looking intently YahuShua said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with Elohim all is possible

[including causing a rich man to willingly leaves his goods behind (just like the camel).”

(Matthew 19:16-26)

Well my professor said that the "Eye of the Needle" was a mountain pass near Jerusalem notorius in ancient times as a haven for highwaymen and robbers. Thus the biblical phrase "its as hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of god as it is for a fully loaded camel to pass through the Eye of the Needle". So everyone's mental image of a bunch of guys vainly trying to push a camel through the eye of sewing needle is irrelevent to the passage.

leejosepho
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 4:36 pm Post subject:

naturalplastic wrote:

Well my professor said that the "Eye of the Needle" was a mountain pass near Jerusalem notorious in ancient times as a haven for highwaymen and robbers. Thus the biblical phrase "its as hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of god as it is for a fully loaded camel to pass through the Eye of the Needle".

Some things in Scripture that come to mind at the moment could mean what you have heard about a pass on a mountain trail is more accurate than what I had heard about a gate in the city wall, but I will have to ponder that a while to try to think it on through.
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NarcissusSavage
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 12:13 am Post subject:

leejosepho wrote:

pandabear wrote:

... the meaning of the metaphor is clear: it is literally impossible for a rich man to enter Heaven.

Then you call YahuShua a liar when he says this:

"“Truly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter into the reign of the heavens ... "

It would indeed be impossible for a rich man to enter heaven. He cannot remain rich upon death, for he no longer has worldly possesions. Death strips him of the adjective "rich". I would argue it strips him of the claim to the noun "man" too, but whatever.

IF "YahuShua" said what you are claiming he said....AND he knows that it is not an accurate statement....THEN he is indeed a liar.

But if he doesn't exist....pandabear is NOT calling "him" a liar.
If "he" did make that statement and did not understand that it was false, he would simply be wrong, not lying, and again pandabear would NOT be calling him a liar.

Even if he exists, knew it was false, and lied....that STILL does not mean pandabear is calling him a liar.

You know why? Because pandabear NEVER said ANYTHING even REMOTELY CLOSE to that. Holy crap.

Lee...dude...

You make some very radical logical missteps and assumtions. I find it offensive, but only because I cannot handle that degree of...error. But I wouldn't be suprised if pandabear was offended with your slander.
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leejosepho
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 12:20 am Post subject:

NarcissusSavage wrote:

leejosepho wrote:

pandabear wrote:

... the meaning of the metaphor is clear: it is literally impossible for a rich man to enter Heaven.

Then you call YahuShua a liar when he says this:

"“Truly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter into the reign of the heavens ... "

It would indeed be impossible for a rich man to enter heaven. He cannot remain rich upon death, for he no longer has worldly possessions. Death strips him of the adjective "rich". I would argue it strips him of the claim to the noun "man" too, but whatever.

Good point!

NarcissusSavage wrote:

IF "YahuShua" said what you are claiming he said....AND he knows that it is not an accurate statement....THEN he is indeed a liar.

I suspect he would recognize and agree with you and me as just above.

NarcissusSavage wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if pandabear was offended with your slander.

There was no slander there, but I do understand what you are saying.

I had intended to place a question mark at the end of that string of words, but goofed.

Edit note: Above post edited accordingly.
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Last edited by leejosepho on Fri May 27, 2011 7:01 am; edited 1 time in total

Philologos
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:22 am Post subject:

CaptainTrips222 wrote:

Philologos wrote:

Captaintrips### -

That IS what it means. The "let's not diss the rich man" interpretations are weaseling. There is evidence from outside.

Wait, what? I'm talking about the needle part. Needle refers to a narrow pass; a geological structure. Not a sewing needle.

Exactly what in the text tells you that? What it SAYS is "eye of a needle". Some interpreters have chosen to reinterpret it as either

A. a camel going around a narrow place in the city streets popularly knoqn as "the eye of the needle"

OR

B. assuming camel is a misreasing for a similar word, a thick rope goinf through the eye of a needle.

BOTH assume of COURSE Jesus would not make it sound like rich people can't get in, he SURELY was just saying it could be a little bit harder than for the average guy.

I heartily disapprove of translators who adjust because of COURSE the author could not possibly mean THAT.

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Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:48 am Post subject:

YippySkippy wrote:

The Bible repeatedly says that there are multiple gods, that the God of Abraham is one of MANY that exist. I am not refering to idols, either, but actual gods. I always wonder why no one else seems to have picked up on this.
Further, Jesus himself says that people are also gods. Shocked

Never heard that coming from a pulpit.

What actual gods?

Or are you talking about that Psalms passage where human judges are sarcastically referred to as gods.

leejosepho
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 6:51 am Post subject:

Philologos wrote:

CaptainTrips222 wrote:

Philologos wrote:

Captaintrips### -

That IS what it means. The "let's not diss the rich man" interpretations are weaseling. There is evidence from outside.

Wait, what? I'm talking about the needle part. Needle refers to a narrow pass; a geological structure. Not a sewing needle.

@Philologos: I am unsure as to what you are saying (or at least why). Are you saying "sewing needle" and nothing else acceptable there?
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AngelRho
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 9:04 am Post subject:

Wow... Such missing of the point!

Looking at the greater passage, it seems that it's the impossibility for anyone to enter heaven that is in view.

Quote:

Luke 18:22-25--When Jesus heard this, He told him, "You still lack one thing: sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me." After he heard this, he became extremely sad, because he was very rich. Seeing that he became sad, Jesus said, "How hard it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God."

Here Jesus never once says explicitly states that either event is IMPOSSIBLE, just that one is easier than the other.

Quote:

Luke 18:26--Those who heard this asked, "Then who can be saved?"

Implies that the idea of a camel going through the eye of a needle is an impossible task. Not once does the passage specify whether the camel is loaded or not--it just says "camel." Interpreting this as a mountain pass or a gate in a city would give that such a thing is actually possible. The implication of Luke 18:26 is that a camel going through the eye of a needle was understood by Jesus' followers to be impossible. If it is impossible for rich people to be saved, who exactly CAN be saved?

Quote:

Luke 18:27--He replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."

So, yes, it is the impossibility of being saved that is in view. The eye of a needle is best taken literally here as a picture of an impossible task. It is unthinkable for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Therefore it is easier for [something impossible] to happen than it is for a rich man to enter heaven, or for anyone to enter heaven for that matter.

The conclusion is that all things are possible with God, and only through His grace and mercy can anyone be saved.

===

The parallel passage in Mark is a little bit more detailed than Luke. Mark 10:24 reads:

Quote:

But the disciples were astonished at His words. Again Jesus said to them, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!"

This is followed by the camel/needle comparison. Some manuscripts read "...how hard it is for those trusting in wealth to enter the kingdom of God!"

So the idea is not merely whether or not rich people can get into heaven, but rather what it is ANYONE places their faith in for salvation. Rich people would appear to be blessed by God and thus have somehow "earned" God's approval, whereas poor people must have done something wrong or failed to do something to be approved by God. The rich person, who has done EVERYTHING RIGHT, will have trouble or difficulty attaining salvation. So if the person who has done everything right and has been richly blessed by God cannot get into heaven, then how much MORE DIFFICULT it would be for poor people to be saved. Logically, there is nothing MORE impossible than IMPOSSIBLE. Therefore, if a rich person cannot get into heaven, then neither can a poor person.

What Jesus is trying to do here is take the focus away from the wealth and put man's full dependence on God Himself for his salvation.

===

Also, the Greek words for "rope" and "camel" are only different by one letter. It is impossible to thread a needle with either a camel or a thick rope, so either way it's appropriate. However, all three synoptic gospels have consistently been translated as understanding the word to mean camel and not rope, and very few later manuscripts translate it as rope. Expressions regarding animals going through the eye of a needle, as well as other absurd expressions used to make a point, are not unknown before the time of the events recorded in the gospels. It would seem that a camel passing through the eye of a needle is to be the preferred translation.

Personally, I have to wonder why, if the image of a rope passing through the eye of a needle makes more sense (in comparison to a single thread), would Jesus even have bothered with the comparison? The idea of a large animal passing through the eye of a needle is even less sensible and such a bizarre comparison would have better fit the purpose of describing impossible things.

Philologos
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 9:25 am Post subject:

naturalplastic: I have many times noted that I have spent my life in or on the fringes of the academy, ol' Prof Philologos am I, Wow! Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. You are saying you BELIEVE what your professor said? The mountain pass is a new version to me - hitherto I have only encountered the urban planning weasel. leejosepho: It is one of the places where I go with Occam rather than dissing him. In translation, the interpretation which requires the least adjustment is preferable. I differ in this from my colleagues and at tiles argue with them - SOME translators believe in folding in adjustments, like air into an omelet, is the way to go. What it SAYS is - it IS - the hole of a needle. Compare Talmudic proverbs and expressions where a camel dancing on a bushel or an elephant going through the eye of a needle is used as an image emphasizing practical impossibility. Which, as has been pointed out, refers to the guy who is rich [including in the sense of the Beatitudes] at the time of the attempt. And WHY a people who say "You can't take it with you" strain at a gnat at a possible restriction on the rich man's carry-on do NOT ask me. People who will not believe me just because I am the professor [why should you?] are urged to look at the facts, or try this with at least shiows I am not the only heretical nutter: http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm

leejosepho
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 9:28 am Post subject:

AngelRho wrote:

Wow... Such missing of the point!

I truly hope you are not sufficiently ignorant so as to be speaking of me there ...

... and I just love this little story:

A wealthy man once insisted on taking his wealth along whenever his time of death might come, and that man's attorney obliged him by having all his assets converted to cash and placed alongside his body within his coffin.

Some months later, the attorney was noticed to begin appearing quite wealthy himself, and when asked about that, he said a friend had once cashed a check for him at the cemetery!
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