aghogday
KATiE MiA
Joined: Nov 26, 2010
Posts: 4748
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 Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 12:24 am Post subject: |
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I think our language, culture, and civilization, gives us the ability to illude a differentiation from the natural world. It takes quite a balancing act to maintain that illusion, but our constructs as a species become stronger as time goes on
If one is left alone, naked in the forest, the answer becomes crystal clear, when one searches for water. The origin of life is the nature around us. That is a harsh reality for someone who has become accustomed to the illusion of our tools.
We couldn't question it without language, culture, and civilization, but we wouldn't have to.
The creator of all creatures is nature. Nature is the creator of action and consequence. The creator of humans is becoming more and more, that of what the human species creates. Action and consequence become a result of human culture rather than nature.
Much of what we perceive day to day, and remember to survive the next day is based on human culture and the more complex it becomes the farther removed we are from nature.
Our Santa Claus of Culture is a religion for all of us who take part in it. It is an opiate for the masses compared to being naked in a forest searching for water. |
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leejosepho
life student
Joined: Sep 15, 2009
Age: 63
Posts: 8118
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| Sand wrote: | | Your concept of your refrigerator as a laboratory requires a bit of severe contemplation. |
Well, sometimes you gotta just "run whatcha brung"! 
_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
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leejosepho
life student
Joined: Sep 15, 2009
Age: 63
Posts: 8118
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| aghogday wrote: | I think our language, culture, and civilization, gives us the ability to illude a differentiation from the natural world. It takes quite a balancing act to maintain that illusion, but our constructs as a species become stronger as time goes on
If one is left alone, naked in the forest, the answer becomes crystal clear, when one searches for water. The origin of life is the nature around us. That is a harsh reality for someone who has become accustomed to the illusion of our tools.
We couldn't question it without language, culture, and civilization, but we wouldn't have to.
The creator of all creatures is nature. Nature is the creator of action and consequence. The creator of humans is becoming more and more, that of what the human species creates. Action and consequence become a result of human culture rather than nature.
Much of what we perceive day to day, and remember to survive the next day is based on human culture and the more complex it becomes the farther removed we are from nature.
Our Santa Claus of Culture is a religion for all of us who take part in it. It is an opiate for the masses compared to being naked in a forest searching for water. |
Many good points there for people to heed -- no fast food in the desert unless you are Hebrew -- but I can only still wonder the source of "nature".
_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
========================================
Each of us serves like a maid-mod
in life, keeping our own slates clean.
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Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 11852
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| leejosepho wrote: | | Sand wrote: | | Your concept of your refrigerator as a laboratory requires a bit of severe contemplation. |
Well, sometimes you gotta just "run whatcha brung"! |
The concept of a laboratory is a system for creating a huge variation of different environments to discover what may arise. A refrigerator is one minor possibility. To produce this huge experimental variety nature merely waits and all sorts of things can arise over a very long time period. A pointed search in a lab can create a great many more possible situations for examination much more quickly. Undersea thermal vents are now under consideration for initial life forms. You might consider, aside from your refrigerator, submerging your cellar and digging a deep hole through the Earth's crust to permit a large variety of interactive minerals to flow into your cellar. No guarantee there but it expands your possibilities a tiny bit. But again, time will be a factor. A million years is no time in this process so again, you will require patience. No doubt a roaring Tyrannosaurus Rex might create a problem with your neighbors. |
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leejosepho
life student
Joined: Sep 15, 2009
Age: 63
Posts: 8118
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| Sand wrote: | | ... No doubt a roaring Tyrannosaurus Rex might create a problem with your neighbors. |
Maybe one of those is what deterred Adam-n-Eve from ever trying to sneak back into the garden, eh?!
Honestly, I have no problem with Sagan's "... billions and billions of light years ago ...", but it is still beyond me to ever be able to think we all came from nothing and are actually headed nowhere.
_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
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Each of us serves like a maid-mod
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Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 11852
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| leejosepho wrote: | | Sand wrote: | | ... No doubt a roaring Tyrannosaurus Rex might create a problem with your neighbors. |
Maybe one of those is what deterred Adam-n-Eve from ever trying to sneak back into the garden, eh?!
Honestly, I have no problem with Sagan's "... billions and billions of light years ago ...", but it is still beyond me to ever be able to think we all came from nothing and are actually headed nowhere. |
Although coming from nothing may remain a puzzle for some, the current economic and political situation in the USA shows definite indications we are not just heading to nowhere, we are in high acceleration in the process. |
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NarcissusSavage
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 03, 2009
Age: 31
Posts: 656
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| leejosepho wrote: | | aghogday wrote: | I think our language, culture, and civilization, gives us the ability to illude a differentiation from the natural world. It takes quite a balancing act to maintain that illusion, but our constructs as a species become stronger as time goes on
If one is left alone, naked in the forest, the answer becomes crystal clear, when one searches for water. The origin of life is the nature around us. That is a harsh reality for someone who has become accustomed to the illusion of our tools.
We couldn't question it without language, culture, and civilization, but we wouldn't have to.
The creator of all creatures is nature. Nature is the creator of action and consequence. The creator of humans is becoming more and more, that of what the human species creates. Action and consequence become a result of human culture rather than nature.
Much of what we perceive day to day, and remember to survive the next day is based on human culture and the more complex it becomes the farther removed we are from nature.
Our Santa Claus of Culture is a religion for all of us who take part in it. It is an opiate for the masses compared to being naked in a forest searching for water. |
Many good points there for people to heed -- no fast food in the desert unless you are Hebrew -- but I can only still wonder the source of "nature". |
Ever ponder the source of god?
I've never had a thiest even try to answer that with anything resembling reason. I have however heard reasonable explainations from nonthiests...
And that "Always was always will be" line is as unfathomable as "From nothing into nothing for no reason" line.
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I am Ignostic.
Go ahead and define god, with universal acceptance of said definition.
I'll wait.
Maybe you are too?
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 23
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Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| NarcissusSavage wrote: | | And that "Always was always will be" line is as unfathomable as "From nothing into nothing for no reason" line. |
It's turtles all the way down.
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FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
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Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 11852
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| NarcissusSavage wrote: | | leejosepho wrote: | | aghogday wrote: | I think our language, culture, and civilization, gives us the ability to illude a differentiation from the natural world. It takes quite a balancing act to maintain that illusion, but our constructs as a species become stronger as time goes on
If one is left alone, naked in the forest, the answer becomes crystal clear, when one searches for water. The origin of life is the nature around us. That is a harsh reality for someone who has become accustomed to the illusion of our tools.
We couldn't question it without language, culture, and civilization, but we wouldn't have to.
The creator of all creatures is nature. Nature is the creator of action and consequence. The creator of humans is becoming more and more, that of what the human species creates. Action and consequence become a result of human culture rather than nature.
Much of what we perceive day to day, and remember to survive the next day is based on human culture and the more complex it becomes the farther removed we are from nature.
Our Santa Claus of Culture is a religion for all of us who take part in it. It is an opiate for the masses compared to being naked in a forest searching for water. |
Many good points there for people to heed -- no fast food in the desert unless you are Hebrew -- but I can only still wonder the source of "nature". |
Ever ponder the source of god?
I've never had a thiest even try to answer that with anything resembling reason. I have however heard reasonable explainations from nonthiests...
And that "Always was always will be" line is as unfathomable as "From nothing into nothing for no reason" line. |
It was discovered long ago by Flash Gordon that God was created on the planet Mongo on their version of the Muppet Show to frighten the kids into eating their broccoli. He was constructed out of the stuffing of a discarded sofa, a pair of red rubber gloves and an old straw hat. The dark sunglasses were added as an afterthought after they ran out of ping pong balls for eyeballs. Somehow, when he reached Earth, he got out of hand. |
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leejosepho
life student
Joined: Sep 15, 2009
Age: 63
Posts: 8118
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| NarcissusSavage wrote: | | Ever ponder the source of god? |
No, I never have. Rather, "He who was, who is, and who will ever be" has always been sufficient for me ... and I have yet to ever hear even the first rational reason for insisting He never was, is not, and will never be.
_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
========================================
Each of us serves like a maid-mod
in life, keeping our own slates clean.
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aghogday
KATiE MiA
Joined: Nov 26, 2010
Posts: 4748
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| leejosepho wrote: | | aghogday wrote: | I think our language, culture, and civilization, gives us the ability to illude a differentiation from the natural world. It takes quite a balancing act to maintain that illusion, but our constructs as a species become stronger as time goes on
If one is left alone, naked in the forest, the answer becomes crystal clear, when one searches for water. The origin of life is the nature around us. That is a harsh reality for someone who has become accustomed to the illusion of our tools.
We couldn't question it without language, culture, and civilization, but we wouldn't have to.
The creator of all creatures is nature. Nature is the creator of action and consequence. The creator of humans is becoming more and more, that of what the human species creates. Action and consequence become a result of human culture rather than nature.
Much of what we perceive day to day, and remember to survive the next day is based on human culture and the more complex it becomes the farther removed we are from nature.
Our Santa Claus of Culture is a religion for all of us who take part in it. It is an opiate for the masses compared to being naked in a forest searching for water. |
Many good points there for people to heed -- no fast food in the desert unless you are Hebrew -- but I can only still wonder the source of "nature". |
I will always wonder, but I think those that feel it the strongest live close to nature. I think the source of nature is inherent in all of us. I've always been sure of it on a personal level, and science reinforces everything I thought I knew from a very young age. I'm not sure humans are as nearly in touch with the source of nature as other animals are. |
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simon_says
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Joined: Jan 21, 2011
Posts: 2443
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I just need somebody to explain the source/cause/origin/reason of those natural processes. |
And yet you wouldn't have similar questions about an intelligence / architect floating in the void.
No matter what you believe about ultimate origins, they make no sense from the perspective of causal beings who evolved to hunt and gather. If a given answer doesn't strike you as somewhat silly and strange, you just aren't thinking it through. |
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leejosepho
life student
Joined: Sep 15, 2009
Age: 63
Posts: 8118
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| simon_says wrote: | | Quote: | | I just need somebody to explain the source/cause/origin/reason of those natural processes. |
And yet you wouldn't have similar questions about an intelligence / architect floating in the void. |
There would be no void, just an empty canvas or sandbox or lump of clay or whatever else in front of said floating intelligence / architect.
| simon_says wrote: | | No matter what you believe about ultimate origins, they make no sense from the perspective of causal beings who evolved to hunt and gather. |
So then, it makes no more sense to not believe than to believe.
Agreed.
| simon_says wrote: | | If a given answer doesn't strike you as somewhat silly and strange, you just aren't thinking it through. |
If we "causal beings who evolved to hunt and gather" were actually capable of "thinking it through", then yes, I suspect some kind of answer would rise at least a little bit above "somewhat silly and strange".
_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
========================================
Each of us serves like a maid-mod
in life, keeping our own slates clean.
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simon_says
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2011
Posts: 2443
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There would be no void, just an empty canvas or sandbox or lump of clay or whatever else in front of said floating intelligence / architect. |
Makes absolutely no difference to my point. The void is mentioned in the bible. Use whatever term you like.
| Quote: | So then, it makes no more sense to not believe than to believe.
Agreed. |
Not my point. Neither is intellectually satisfying because we don't naturally think in terms of first causes or eternity nor can we answer "why something rather than nothing". That's not the same as weighing the truth value of a given religion.
| Quote: | | If we "causal beings who evolved to hunt and gather" were actually capable of "thinking it through", then yes, I suspect some kind of answer would rise at least a little bit above "somewhat silly and strange". |
I totally disagree. I think that believers get so hung up on the platitudes and dogma of their religion (spouting it off as if the ultimate cause was just another grocery list) that they actually think they understand it in some way or that it's all very simple. They are kidding themselves. Many don't want to be challenged, they want comforting stories. That's the point.
You think the universe isn't mysterious because you invoke magical events?  That's an almost intentional effort not to think about what you are saying. Why something rather than nothing is not answered in the bible. It's not the jewish desert god's autobiography. |
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Oodain
big chief wulla bamboom alakaway
Joined: Jan 31, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 5022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| leejosepho wrote: | | simon_says wrote: | | Quote: | | I just need somebody to explain the source/cause/origin/reason of those natural processes. |
And yet you wouldn't have similar questions about an intelligence / architect floating in the void. |
There would be no void, just an empty canvas or sandbox or lump of clay or whatever else in front of said floating intelligence / architect. |
if a god wasnt present before the creation of matter, is it a god?
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the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.
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