Joined: Sep 15, 2009 Posts: 2302 Location: A rock in the milky way
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:23 pm Post subject:
ruveyn wrote:
Horus wrote:
Secondly....even IF "human nature" IS some objective quality....what in the devil has humankind been doing for past 5000 years or more if not ALTERING NATURE in every conceivable way??? Why then would you take issue with any alterations directed at our own nature assuming "human nature" does have some common characteristic/s which inevitably, like the force of gravity, guide us towards capitalism??? Likely because you've been one of the few who has known little but the benefits of capitalism eh???
Human Nature has not been altered in any significant way in the last ten thousand years. We are still the same kind of nasty war-primate we were ten thousand years ago.
ruveyn
If you believe this, that is, if you believe that "we" are by nature "nasty war-primates"....then wouldn't you suggest alteration of this "nature" ought to be our highest priority.
I doubt you would seeing as this "nature" usually benefits you and your kind. You only like to whine about it when the unwashed masses finally become tired of your abuses and come to kill you and take your stuff. _________________ Morning comes the sunrise and i'm driven to my bed, I see that it is empty and there's devils in my head. I embrace, the many-colored beast...I grow weary of the torment....can there be no peace? I find myself just wishing, that my life would simply cease
Joined: Sep 22, 2008 Age: 76 Posts: 29291 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:24 pm Post subject:
Horus wrote:
If you believe this, that is, if you believe that "we" are by nature "nasty war-primates"....then wouldn't you suggest alteration of this "nature" ought to be our highest priority.
.
That would be chasing the wind and attempting the impossible.
And any attempt to make us "better" will probably make us worse.
Joined: Sep 15, 2009 Posts: 2302 Location: A rock in the milky way
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:00 pm Post subject:
ruveyn wrote:
Horus wrote:
If you believe this, that is, if you believe that "we" are by nature "nasty war-primates"....then wouldn't you suggest alteration of this "nature" ought to be our highest priority.
.
That would be chasing the wind and attempting the impossible.
And any attempt to make us "better" will probably make us worse.
ruveyn
Do you have any empirical data to prove this or are you just making stuff up again???
It's funny what humankind can whittle out of nature when it puts its mind to it. We managed to weaponize the atom did we not? How can you be so sure any attempts at improving our species would, by necessity, make us worse??? _________________ Morning comes the sunrise and i'm driven to my bed, I see that it is empty and there's devils in my head. I embrace, the many-colored beast...I grow weary of the torment....can there be no peace? I find myself just wishing, that my life would simply cease
Joined: Sep 22, 2008 Age: 76 Posts: 29291 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:15 pm Post subject:
Horus wrote:
Do you have any empirical data to prove this or are you just making stuff up again???
?
Simple fact. Humans have been around for maybe 250,000 years and they are still killing, robbing, raping, and oppressing each other. If we could have figured out how to prevent that, we would have by now. Conclusion, we don't know how to eliminate the evil and vile aspects of human behavior. The best we can do is punish them. That is action after the fact.
Now look a prison as an institute of reform. Do we reform criminals there? No. We teach them how to be more efficient criminals. Look at psychology. Has that eliminate psychosis and neurosis? It has not. Given our track record I would say we have two chances to improve humans: slim and none.
Joined: Sep 15, 2009 Posts: 2302 Location: A rock in the milky way
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:32 pm Post subject:
ruveyn wrote:
Horus wrote:
Do you have any empirical data to prove this or are you just making stuff up again???
?
Simple fact. Humans have been around for maybe 250,000 years and they are still killing, robbing, raping, and oppressing each other. If we could have figured out how to prevent that, we would have by now. Conclusion, we don't know how to eliminate the evil and vile aspects of human behavior. The best we can do is punish them. That is action after the fact.
Now look a prison as an institute of reform. Do we reform criminals there? No. We teach them how to be more efficient criminals. Look at psychology. Has that eliminate psychosis and neurosis? It has not. Given our track record I would say we have two chances to improve humans: slim and none.
ruveyn
No.....we wouldn't necessarily try to figure out how to prevent it. For one thing......killing, robbing, raping and oppressing often greatly benefits those who would be critical to preventing it. For another....plenty of the more fortunate within say....the so-called middle class...aren't being killed, robbed, raped and oppressed to any significant degree. For them....these things are largely out of sight and therefore out of mind.
So "figuring it out" may just be a matter of something billions of simply refuse to do. That is......sacrifice even the smallest portion of their desired way of life for the betterment of all and the planet. Why should they be expected to sacrifice you may ask??? Perhaps they shouldn't. But by the same token, maybe they shouldn't scream and wail too much when the less fortunate come to kill, rob, rape and oppress THEM.
So saying there slim hope is hardly the same as saying there is NO hope. Considering what is at stake.....I'd say even if you are right and there's slim hope of improving the lot of humankind.....that's no excuse not to try. _________________ Morning comes the sunrise and i'm driven to my bed, I see that it is empty and there's devils in my head. I embrace, the many-colored beast...I grow weary of the torment....can there be no peace? I find myself just wishing, that my life would simply cease
Then again, we're not making human sacrifices to Wodan anymore. And the fact that a social safety net exists in westernized cultures is proof of some progress.
But I agree, strip away the veneer of civilization, and you'll see that human nature is as barbaric and evil as it had been thousands of years ago.
Joined: Sep 15, 2009 Posts: 2302 Location: A rock in the milky way
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:34 pm Post subject:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Then again, we're not making human sacrifices to Wodan anymore. And the fact that a social safety net exists in westernized cultures is proof of some progress.
But I agree, strip away the veneer of civilization, and you'll see that human nature is as barbaric and evil as it had been thousands of years ago.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
I can't really place much stock in this concept of "human nature". Human behavior seems extremely malleable to me and I really don't know too many people who I'd call overtly barbaric and evil. Most people seem to want to live and let live to me. They want to raise their families in peace and generally get whatever happiness they can out of life. The tragedy lies in the fact that clever and rapacious sociopaths have always wanted more than their fair share regardless of the cost to anyone or anything else. The masses, unfortunately, are quite inclined to fear and thus easily manipulated. Think of almost any large scale misdeeds in history and you'll see that mass support was obtained by fear-mongering leaders with their own agendas. Sometimes, like in the case of Hitler, the leaders actually believed their own lies.
In the case of our leaders however.....I hardly think that's the case. We've had a over-bloated "defense" budget for decades now. Even after the fall of that exaggerated threat, the Soviet Union, our leaders have done everything in their power to convince the masses that we need to continue spending outrageous sums on national "defense". If it's not "defense" against so-called "rogue states" (which essentially couldn't fight their way out of paper bag in comparison to the awesome power and technology of the American military) it's "defense" against terrorism. All in the name of enriching Halliburton, The Oil companies, Boeing, Blackwater, etc.....and the parasites commonly known as "shareholders" who profit from all this profligate waste, murder and misery.
It's pretty bad when even an idiotic and viscous neo-nazi can recognize all this whereas millions of American "conservatives" obviously cannot. It is too bad Metzger is a racist scumbag. Those of us interested in economic, social and environmental justice could really use a man of his passion, dedication and organizational/leadership skills.
Lest anyone accuse me of having the least bit of respect for the man, permit me to make it clear that I'm jewish (by ancestry...not religion) and I suffer from a neurodevelopmental disorder (Asperger's/NLD). Thus...I'd be among the first to be exterminated if people like Tom Metzger had their way. Nonetheless......his thoughts about capitalism, con-servatism and the environment largely echo my own. So it's simply a case of credit where some credit is due:
_________________ Morning comes the sunrise and i'm driven to my bed, I see that it is empty and there's devils in my head. I embrace, the many-colored beast...I grow weary of the torment....can there be no peace? I find myself just wishing, that my life would simply cease
Joined: Sep 22, 2008 Age: 76 Posts: 29291 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:18 am Post subject:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Then again, we're not making human sacrifices to Wodan anymore. And the fact that a social safety net exists in westernized cultures is proof of some progress.
But I agree, strip away the veneer of civilization, and you'll see that human nature is as barbaric and evil as it had been thousands of years ago.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
No. We just send our soldiers overseas to be blown up by IEDs and for what?
Joined: Jan 31, 2011 Age: 23 Posts: 5022 Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:48 am Post subject:
i think a far lower percentage of man is involved in war or active killing today than 2000 years ago,
that being said i agree with the sentiment that human "nature" can be extremely hard to do anything about. _________________ //through chaos comes complexity//
the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.
Joined: Sep 15, 2009 Posts: 2302 Location: A rock in the milky way
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:55 am Post subject:
ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Then again, we're not making human sacrifices to Wodan anymore. And the fact that a social safety net exists in westernized cultures is proof of some progress.
But I agree, strip away the veneer of civilization, and you'll see that human nature is as barbaric and evil as it had been thousands of years ago.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
No. We just send our soldiers overseas to be blown up by IEDs and for what?
ruveyn
For the benefit of the Military-Industrial complex and those who invest in it. Who else benefits??? _________________ Morning comes the sunrise and i'm driven to my bed, I see that it is empty and there's devils in my head. I embrace, the many-colored beast...I grow weary of the torment....can there be no peace? I find myself just wishing, that my life would simply cease
For the benefit of the Military-Industrial complex and those who invest in it. Who else benefits???
Sounds like sacrifice on the Altar of Moloch to me.
ruveyn
Please, fill me in about what Moloch was god of.
But, as Wodan/Odin was god of war and death, and was the patron of war chiefs and kings, I have to think that maybe that one eyed old bastard is really in charge, even after all this time.
Joined: Sep 15, 2009 Posts: 2302 Location: A rock in the milky way
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:51 pm Post subject:
Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Horus wrote:
For the benefit of the Military-Industrial complex and those who invest in it. Who else benefits???
Sounds like sacrifice on the Altar of Moloch to me.
ruveyn
Please, fill me in about what Moloch was god of.
But, as Wodan/Odin was god of war and death, and was the patron of war chiefs and kings, I have to think that maybe that one eyed old bastard is really in charge, even after all this time.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Off the top of my head.....Moloch was a Phoenician god who was honored, at least in part, by the immolation of children.
Religion:
Billons served and still counting _________________ Morning comes the sunrise and i'm driven to my bed, I see that it is empty and there's devils in my head. I embrace, the many-colored beast...I grow weary of the torment....can there be no peace? I find myself just wishing, that my life would simply cease
For the benefit of the Military-Industrial complex and those who invest in it. Who else benefits???
Sounds like sacrifice on the Altar of Moloch to me.
ruveyn
Please, fill me in about what Moloch was god of.
But, as Wodan/Odin was god of war and death, and was the patron of war chiefs and kings, I have to think that maybe that one eyed old bastard is really in charge, even after all this time.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Off the top of my head.....Moloch was a Phoenician god who was honored, at least in part, by the immolation of children.
Religion:
Billons served and still counting
Wodan wasn't fed with the souls of children burnt alive, but he was the god of hanged men. Very often,these were prisoners of war, who were strangled in the god's honor, and were sometimes disemboweled as they kicked and gagged, suspended at the end of a rope. Tacitus in The Germania wrote of how the rival tribes of the Chatti and Hermunduri, about to go to war over a spring where salt could be found nearby, where both sides had sworn to sacrifice all their prisoners to Wodan. In the end, the Hermunduri were victorious, and all the captured Chatti warriors were served up to Wodan.
