Moog
Pussycat
Joined: Feb 26, 2010
Age: 34
Posts: 17637
Location: Untied Kingdom
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 Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| pluto wrote: | | "If one person can show so much hatred,just think how much love the rest of us together can show" |
Quite right. Thanks Pluto!
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29309
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| pluto wrote: |
"If one person can show so much hatred,just think how much love the rest of us together can show" |
If it gets any sweeter than this, my teeth will decay.
ruveyn |
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Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 5111
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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In D Browns Human Universals, a sense of place, people, history, land, is listed. Just like any universal human trait, going against it causes a backlash.
The American Civil Rights Act pushed people apart. Advancing Human Rights caused all groups to look within. We now have a lot of people like this shooter that live within a Christian Conserative world.
At least in America we came by our minorities the old fashioned way, killing most of the Native Americans, taking land from Mexico, and importing slaves. There is a hostile but equal standoff, and do not be too white in the Barrio, Hood, or Rez. We live seperate lives.
Be it the Getto or Appalachians, or a gated community, it is everything they have, and they are hostile to outsiders. It is a Human Universal.
So I do not understand Norway. They are importing conflict.
We could move the Rosebud Souix to Iceland, there would be less cultural conflict.
It is also unequal, just try moving a Christian colony to Islamic lands and building churches.
Just to be helpful, we can move ten million Chinese to each of the twenty largest economies, so we can all learn to be multicultural. To be fair they would also get ten million from India.
Open up your hearts and love the whole world. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12755
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Inventor wrote: | In D Browns Human Universals, a sense of place, people, history, land, is listed. Just like any universal human trait, going against it causes a backlash.
The American Civil Rights Act pushed people apart. Advancing Human Rights caused all groups to look within. We now have a lot of people like this shooter that live within a Christian Conserative world.
At least in America we came by our minorities the old fashioned way, killing most of the Native Americans, taking land from Mexico, and importing slaves. There is a hostile but equal standoff, and do not be too white in the Barrio, Hood, or Rez. We live seperate lives.
Be it the Getto or Appalachians, or a gated community, it is everything they have, and they are hostile to outsiders. It is a Human Universal.
So I do not understand Norway. They are importing conflict.
We could move the Rosebud Souix to Iceland, there would be less cultural conflict.
It is also unequal, just try moving a Christian colony to Islamic lands and building churches.
Just to be helpful, we can move ten million Chinese to each of the twenty largest economies, so we can all learn to be multicultural. To be fair they would also get ten million from India.
Open up your hearts and love the whole world. |
If I'm reading your post correctly, you seem to be suggesting that the shooter was right on some level. I'll remind you, this guy is nothing but a social misfit, who expressed the inadequacies and petty hatreds in violence directed at innocent people. He in no way represented the Norwegian people, who come across as a very open minded, liberal bunch.
And where did you get the idea that the civil rights movement only served to separate people? Like blacks had been accepted by whites prior to it.
And just because tribalism comes natural to humans doesn't make it right. The best example that the instinct for tribal mentalities can be overcome successfully is here in the United States. Sure, we as of yet hardly have a perfect record, but we have made strives to live up to our national motto. E Pluribus Unum - Through Many, one.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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cyberdad
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 22, 2011
Age: 45
Posts: 1614
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: Bombings in Oslo, Norway; shootings |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | Beauty_pact wrote: | At least two bombings against Norweigan government offices and shootings by a man masked as a policeman at a political children's summit camp.
Link to article from Sky News |
I will bet good money that Muslims are behind this.
ruveyn |
So have you paid out yet?
I'm not a great fan of islam but I think being recipients of discrimination ourselves we ain't in a position to discriminate agains't others. Dare I say it. people in glass houses.... |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29309
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: Bombings in Oslo, Norway; shootings |
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| cyberdad wrote: | | ruveyn wrote: | | Beauty_pact wrote: | At least two bombings against Norweigan government offices and shootings by a man masked as a policeman at a political children's summit camp.
Link to article from Sky News |
I will bet good money that Muslims are behind this.
ruveyn |
So have you paid out yet?
I'm not a great fan of islam but I think being recipients of discrimination ourselves we ain't in a position to discriminate agains't others. Dare I say it. people in glass houses.... |
Yup. I was dead wrong.
ruveyn |
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Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 5111
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | | Inventor wrote: | In D Browns Human Universals, a sense of place, people, history, land, is listed. Just like any universal human trait, going against it causes a backlash.
The American Civil Rights Act pushed people apart. Advancing Human Rights caused all groups to look within. We now have a lot of people like this shooter that live within a Christian Conserative world.
At least in America we came by our minorities the old fashioned way, killing most of the Native Americans, taking land from Mexico, and importing slaves. There is a hostile but equal standoff, and do not be too white in the Barrio, Hood, or Rez. We live seperate lives.
Be it the Getto or Appalachians, or a gated community, it is everything they have, and they are hostile to outsiders. It is a Human Universal.
So I do not understand Norway. They are importing conflict.
We could move the Rosebud Souix to Iceland, there would be less cultural conflict.
It is also unequal, just try moving a Christian colony to Islamic lands and building churches.
Just to be helpful, we can move ten million Chinese to each of the twenty largest economies, so we can all learn to be multicultural. To be fair they would also get ten million from India.
Open up your hearts and love the whole world. |
If I'm reading your post correctly, you seem to be suggesting that the shooter was right on some level. I'll remind you, this guy is nothing but a social misfit, who expressed the inadequacies and petty hatreds in violence directed at innocent people. He in no way represented the Norwegian people, who come across as a very open minded, liberal bunch.
And where did you get the idea that the civil rights movement only served to separate people? Like blacks had been accepted by whites prior to it.
And just because tribalism comes natural to humans doesn't make it right. The best example that the instinct for tribal mentalities can be overcome successfully is here in the United States. Sure, we as of yet hardly have a perfect record, but we have made strives to live up to our national motto. E Pluribus Unum - Through Many, one.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
I do not think he was at all right. Our American version was Timmy McViegh, who did bring people together. Hating the government is an American tradition, but not killing them.
It is a human universal that males will make war if they feel threatened. From small tribes to Nation States, it is a universal. Most wars have started from the act of a single person. John Brown started a war in America.
All he wanted to do was invade someone elses land, steal guns, arm the blacks, and kill all the whites. He got hung, but his vision lived on. Charles Manson called it Helter Skelter, he got life. Usama, had a plan.
Some get the rope, some like Custer killed trying, and some become national heros. Some manage to start major conflicts. We killed a hundred thousand in Iraq, because,,, we could? Whatever it was Congress agreed to it.
Many were killed when the boundries were drawn putting Hutu and Tusi in the same country. Some acts promote conflict.
I think the tribal and class lines in America are becoming stronger. The Army can overcome it because they all join the Green Tribe.
The national vote is falling more on social lines than on what the canidate says.
In the deep south, the Pope's troops always had their own schools, Civil Rights brought Christian Schools, and public schools, black and white became an underclass. High School got dumbed down to eighth grade level. The church schools are not great, but politics produced educational cripples in the public schools. Church schools have their own universities, and a high graduation rate. It is class warfare at all levels.
In New Orleans the Pope has more employees than the City and Parish, County to the rest of you, and most of the city and parish offices.
North of here it is the same with Christians filling all offices. The rest of us have been excluded. We are moving farther and farther apart.
This makes it easy to see others as not really human.
The Pope sees Mexicans as their own, the Christians as cheap labor and not black, the rest see them taking our jobs and anything left in the yard.
Perhaps you viewed ten million Chinese as humor, we have more illegal Mexicans.
Government is no longer our government. Local, it belongs to some church, national was a leveraged buyout from Goldman Sachs.
Government at all levels ignores the will of the people. That was our bond, what made us a people. Government has grown so large it votes it's self into office.
We do need the European many parties that get a voice in government. No one can out vote the State-Church Axis.
People who feel excluded act excluded, and if you do not see me as human, how shall I see you?
From outside the national bond, they all become enemies.
The recent behavior of Washington shows they do not care what we think. On optional wars they broke the bank, bailed out their owners, and are printing money and calling for cutting everything that goes to the people.
We have a minor employment problem that is what most people think about, our jobs were sold, and we have been invaded. Sending the Mexicans back to Mexico, we can have full employment.
Illegals are illegal, they send money out of the country. They work but do not pay Social Security. Most people see this as the problem. Washington does not. To them cutting Social Security is the answer.
I think they have stolen the future, and are running to get unelected. They are your ex who before they split maxes out your credit cards, cleans out your bank account, and takes loans in the name of your children.
This is going to be an ugly divorce.
I do not think shooting people is the answer, but social alienation is the problem.
"Why can't we all just get along?" Roddney King |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:00 am Post subject: |
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I don't recall anyone where I live (Pacific Northwest) seeing Timothy McVeigh as anything but a mass murderer and fanatic - just like that lunatic in Norway - and hardly a unifier of any kind.
I do agree with you that there is definitely class warfare being waged against us in the USA, orchestrated by forces of reaction that opposes racial equality and a social safety net. And while I very well may have put my foot in my mouth already concerning politically active conservative churches, I'll risk looking nuts and add that you're correct that evangelicals are part of the forces of reaction that want to turn back the clock on the rest of us.
But a retreat into tribalism is hardly the answer, as it could only serve to rip apart a country like America where ethnic and religious diversity makes us what we are.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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anna-banana
indifferent peapod
Joined: Aug 31, 2008
Age: 30
Posts: 6740
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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ok, Inventor, I think I see what you're getting at - and I agree that we as humans are predetermined to seek an enemy outside of our group/tribe so that we could defend the tribe and feel utilised (at least some of us are definitely this way). I'm sure that if this was the Viking times, Breivik would've made a great and probably legendary warrior.
thing is, times change. and the tribe that initially was around 148 (Dunbar's number) expanded with time. all of us Europeans, we're so different yet we've been co-existing peacefully for 6 decades and it looks like we'll continue to do so, despite the "cultural differences". there's no reason to believe that we couldn't, in the future, co-exist peacefully with muslims and whatnot, and eventually expand our group conciousness to include all humanity (and maybe more? all primates? all mammals? one can only hope)
why seek confrontation? you seem to believe that we can never get along. yet we are all humans and we differ more between each other than our ethnic or national groups differ between each other.
what if we get invaded by an alien race? what then? do you believe we'd divide? no, we'd fight as one human race against another (alien) race. yet while we're still alone, we invent all those ridiculous differences. if I'm interpreting Breivik's writings correctly, he was more driven by hatred in itself - directed everywhere, towards women, muslims, socialists, those who disagreed with him, pretty much anything that wasn't him or exactly like him - than by any logical cultural difference. even though in the times of knights, that he seems so much to miss, he would've probably have been some potato-digging prole with no perspectives.
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Inuyasha
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Joined: Jan 13, 2009
Posts: 9745
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | | Inuyasha wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | Beauty_pact wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | I just saw a clip of Glenn Beck, in which he expresses outrage - - not over the shooting - - but that the Norwegian Labor Party should have a political youth camp, which he in fact compared to the Hitler Youth.
I can't begin to tell you how angry I am at this psycho prick, Beck, right now. |
For the uninformed, who is Glenn Beck? |
He's a right wing huckster who has largely inbred, brainless crackers and rednecks listening for every word to tumble from his lips. Basically, he tells people on the far right what they want to hear, by twisting facts, telling half-truths, and all out lies. The man is a first class demagogue and rank self promoter who got famous on Fox news for a few years as their biggest money maker, till he chased away their sponsors with his vile, insane rhetoric. He was instrumental in pushing lies, such as that Obama's health care reforms involved killing old people, that liberal progressive ideology is equal to communism and Nazism, and that Muslim Americans, and labor union members are enemies of our country, etc. I could go on and on, but I'd be typing all night.
Needless to say, I strongly dislike the man, but what he said about the children who were victims of that lunatic is unpardonable.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Rhetorical Question: Why do I get the feeling the clip is just another out-of-context sound bite?
Answer: Because that is the same tactic people have repeatedly used to attempt to smear him in the past. |
It wasn't out of context, because he addressed the topic (the Oslo shooting), and then made the infuriatingly insensitive remark that the labor party youth camp was comparable to the Hitler Youth, without even condemning the shooter.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Again, you said you saw a clip, not the full show, you've already been burned when you used clips to make comments about Glenn Beck before, the statement you made about him advocating violence remember, where I showed that what you posted was a small clip that was totally out of context. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
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Age: 47
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:14 am Post subject: |
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As a matter of fact, this same clip has been all over the news since your idol said those ugly things about those kids who were killed in that camp. And Beck has not denied saying it - on the contrary, he's been defending his position.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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ptjman
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: May 11, 2011
Age: 15
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| It is so terrible. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29309
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| ptjman wrote: | | It is so terrible. |
Compared to what? It does not hold a candle to the incineration of Dresden or the nuking of Hiroshima or Nagasaki or the burning down of downtown Tokyo in 1945.
More people die in automobile accidents than on that beach in Norway.
ruveyn |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12755
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | ptjman wrote: | | It is so terrible. |
Compared to what? It does not hold a candle to the incineration of Dresden or the nuking of Hiroshima or Nagasaki or the burning down of downtown Tokyo in 1945.
More people die in automobile accidents than on that beach in Norway.
ruveyn |
But not that many people die in automobile accidents all at once. And the operative word is accident - not because of the machinations of some hate filled social misfit.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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memesplice
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2010
Posts: 1072
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| Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | -digging prole with no perspectives. |
Anna -now some of us proles are very happy being proles. He should have given it a try. It's good for whatever it is the religious call a soul . It's honest if you make it so, and you can wash the dirt off in a shower every night, sometimes in a bucket in the yard is best, and sleep sound and solid the whole night through. Beer tastes good a swell . Perspectives are a pack of cards for a particular game , never a reason to kill anyone over. |
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