ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Rasta is about freedom and the living God
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Joined: Jun 19, 2008
Posts: 7998
Location: Babylon
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 Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:45 am Post subject: #occupywallstreet |
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I am surprised there are no threads concerning the massive protests in NYC.
It's about time they started, surprised it didn't happen sooner. Their website said they were inspired by the arab spring.
There's supposed to be a bigger protest today 3:00 pm Eastern time at Foley Square. A march.
Http://occupywallst.org/
Hope they change some things.
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number5
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Joined: Jun 16, 2009
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Location: sunny philadelphia
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Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 5111
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Lets keep it in News and Current Events, PPR lives in the past. |
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Inuyasha
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Joined: Jan 13, 2009
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| And the left finds another group of scapegoats. |
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number5
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Joined: Jun 16, 2009
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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It absolutely deserves a home in News and Current Events as well. I'm happy to participate in both.
Inuyasha, this above and beyond party politics. It's not left vs. right. It's the 99% vs. the 1%. |
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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Rasta is about freedom and the living God
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Posts: 7998
Location: Babylon
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't know it was in PPR but then again, it involves Politics, so seems logical that would be a good place for it. I was thinking News and Current Events because of the obvious newsworthy connection. I should have checked both, I guess.
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JUST LET THE GUY BE FROM K PAX!!!!!! |
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Fnord
Enigmatic Threadkilling Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 17804
Location: Stendec
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| number5 wrote: | | It absolutely deserves a home in News and Current Events as well. I'm happy to participate in both. Inuyasha, this above and beyond party politics. It's not left vs. right. It's the 99% vs. the 1%. |
No, it's about the poor placing the blame for their poverty on the rich, instead of taking the initiative and creating jobs for themselves.
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* Believing in myths allows the comfort of having an opinion without the discomfort of having to think.
* Believing that you're worthless allows the comfort of having something to complain about without the discomfort of having to change. |
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Gedrene
Never give in. Always find a way.
Joined: Jul 10, 2011
Posts: 2725
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Inuyasha wrote: | | And the left finds another group of scapegoats. |
Well that's highly judgemental, inaccurate and hypocritical. That you try and bottle this up in to a left-wing/right-wing issue without explanation indicates an inability to judge objectively. |
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oldmantime
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Age: 32
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Fnord wrote: | | number5 wrote: | | It absolutely deserves a home in News and Current Events as well. I'm happy to participate in both. Inuyasha, this above and beyond party politics. It's not left vs. right. It's the 99% vs. the 1%. |
No, it's about the poor placing the blame for their poverty on the rich, instead of taking the initiative and creating jobs for themselves. |
you do realize that given that there's only so much money and wealth in any economic system that for one group to be really rich there must be a group who is to the same degree poor, right?
And create jobs? with what? what resource would you use to do that? who would you sell the product to in an economy where everyone is going broke?
this isn't even an issue of whether or not a person deserves wealth. it's an issue of the fact that for people to buy things they must get paid enough to buy things and that if people don't buy things then the economy goes to crap. eventually everyone will go broke. also, i've also wondered how it is that the rich earned all their money. was it through work or was it through other people's work? |
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Gedrene
Never give in. Always find a way.
Joined: Jul 10, 2011
Posts: 2725
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| oldmantime wrote: | | Fnord wrote: | | number5 wrote: | | It absolutely deserves a home in News and Current Events as well. I'm happy to participate in both. Inuyasha, this above and beyond party politics. It's not left vs. right. It's the 99% vs. the 1%. |
No, it's about the poor placing the blame for their poverty on the rich, instead of taking the initiative and creating jobs for themselves. |
you do realize that given that there's only so much money and wealth in any economic system that for one group to be really rich there must be a group who is to the same degree poor, right? |
You have in one fell swoop shown complete ignorance about how any economic system works whatsoever. If you didn't already know, economies can grow and furthermore their performance affected by the decisions made by all people, actions, laws, events and so forth. To try and grind all this away and leave behind a zero-sum game is to make one of the largest and most common logical fallacies of economics ever. Economics is not water displacement. There isn't a set amount of wealth in the world.
| oldmantime wrote: | | And create jobs? with what? what resource would you use to do that? who would you sell the product to in an economy where everyone is going broke? |
Well since the USA still has a GDP of over $12Trillion I doubt you are lacking in the resource department.
| oldmantime wrote: | | this isn't even an issue of whether or not a person deserves wealth. it's an issue of the fact that for people to buy things they must get paid enough to buy things and that if people don't buy things then the economy goes to crap. eventually everyone will go broke. also, i've also wondered how it is that the rich earned all their money. was it through work or was it through other people's work? |
To be honest, there actually is nothing wrong with what you said here. It's simplistic, but since when was something being simplistic wrong? This is correct. |
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Fnord
Enigmatic Threadkilling Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 17804
Location: Stendec
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| oldmantime wrote: | | Fnord wrote: | | number5 wrote: | | It absolutely deserves a home in News and Current Events as well. I'm happy to participate in both. Inuyasha, this above and beyond party politics. It's not left vs. right. It's the 99% vs. the 1%. |
No, it's about the poor placing the blame for their poverty on the rich, instead of taking the initiative and creating jobs for themselves. |
you do realize that given that there's only so much money and wealth in any economic system that for one group to be really rich there must be a group who is to the same degree poor, right? |
You do realize that this is called the "Zero-Sum Fallacy", and that our economic system is not a game of Monopoly, right?
| oldmantime wrote: | | And create jobs? with what? what resource would you use to do that? who would you sell the product to in an economy where everyone is going broke? |
Haven't you ever heard of "Homeboy Industries" or the "Sriracha" story? Both were started from practically nothing, and have grown into nationally and internationally recognized businesses in the last 30 years.
| oldmantime wrote: | | this isn't even an issue of whether or not a person deserves wealth. it's an issue of the fact that for people to buy things they must get paid enough to buy things and that if people don't buy things then the economy goes to crap. eventually everyone will go broke. |
You want to pay people to buy things? Hire a broker or an agent, then.
| oldmantime wrote: | | also, i've also wondered how it is that the rich earned all their money. was it through work or was it through other people's work? |
It doesn't matter. If I start a business, and the demand for my product or service exceeds my ability to provide it alone, then I am going to hire other people to do it. Eventually, because it is my business, I will be giving the orders to my workers who make the product or provide the service while I collect what profit is left over after paying their salaries, the bills, the invoices, and the taxes and fees that the government imposes.
Now, if I can cut any of these expenses - and workers' salaries are expenses - then I am going to do it. If this means that I find a cheaper pool of labor elsewhere, then I'm going to move my manufacturing operations to that other location. If I can replace 90% of my workers with robots, then I will do that too.
This is because I am in business to take money in, not give it away.
If my workers want to dictate how much I should pay them, then their only options are: (1) Buy my business and run it themselves; (2) Convince their government to pass laws requiring me to raise their wages; (3) Convince their government to pass laws that lower or eliminate my government-imposed taxes and fees; or (4) Convince my suppliers to lower the cost of the goods and services that they sell to me.
Organizing the workers to camp out in the street, wave signs, shout slogans, and generally make a nuisance of themselves will only convince me to move my business to a more hospitable location, even if that means moving it entirely out of the country.
Now get this through your skull: Working for a living wage is not a right, it is a transaction! Each and every worker in the world is in competition with every other worker in the world. I will hire the worker who is able and willing to put out more labor for less pay than any other worker - within all legally-established limits and standards, of course.
The situation we have right now is that third-world workers can and will perform more labor, more often, and for lower wages than their first-world counterparts. In response, first-world laborers seem to want to be given hand-outs for contributing nothing at all to the profits of corporations that they don't even work for!
"Money for Nothing" is a song, and not a viable business model.
_________________
* Believing in myths allows the comfort of having an opinion without the discomfort of having to think.
* Believing that you're worthless allows the comfort of having something to complain about without the discomfort of having to change. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12717
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Fnord wrote: | | oldmantime wrote: | | Fnord wrote: | | number5 wrote: | | It absolutely deserves a home in News and Current Events as well. I'm happy to participate in both. Inuyasha, this above and beyond party politics. It's not left vs. right. It's the 99% vs. the 1%. |
No, it's about the poor placing the blame for their poverty on the rich, instead of taking the initiative and creating jobs for themselves. |
you do realize that given that there's only so much money and wealth in any economic system that for one group to be really rich there must be a group who is to the same degree poor, right? |
You do realize that this is called the "Zero-Sum Fallacy", and that our economic system is not a game of Monopoly, right?
| oldmantime wrote: | | And create jobs? with what? what resource would you use to do that? who would you sell the product to in an economy where everyone is going broke? |
Haven't you ever heard of "Homeboy Industries" or the "Sriracha" story? Both were started from practically nothing, and have grown into nationally and internationally recognized businesses in the last 30 years.
| oldmantime wrote: | | this isn't even an issue of whether or not a person deserves wealth. it's an issue of the fact that for people to buy things they must get paid enough to buy things and that if people don't buy things then the economy goes to crap. eventually everyone will go broke. |
You want to pay people to buy things? Hire a broker or an agent, then.
| oldmantime wrote: | | also, i've also wondered how it is that the rich earned all their money. was it through work or was it through other people's work? |
It doesn't matter. If I start a business, and the demand for my product or service exceeds my ability to provide it alone, then I am going to hire other people to do it. Eventually, because it is my business, I will be giving the orders to my workers who make the product or provide the service while I collect what profit is left over after paying their salaries, the bills, the invoices, and the taxes and fees that the government imposes.
Now, if I can cut any of these expenses - and workers' salaries are expenses - then I am going to do it. If this means that I find a cheaper pool of labor elsewhere, then I'm going to move my manufacturing operations to that other location. If I can replace 90% of my workers with robots, then I will do that too.
This is because I am in business to take money in, not give it away.
If my workers want to dictate how much I should pay them, then their only options are: (1) Buy my business and run it themselves; (2) Convince their government to pass laws requiring me to raise their wages; (3) Convince their government to pass laws that lower or eliminate my government-imposed taxes and fees; or (4) Convince my suppliers to lower the cost of the goods and services that they sell to me.
Organizing the workers to camp out in the street, wave signs, shout slogans, and generally make a nuisance of themselves will only convince me to move my business to a more hospitable location, even if that means moving it entirely out of the country.
Now get this through your skull: Working for a living wage is not a right, it is a transaction! Each and every worker in the world is in competition with every other worker in the world. I will hire the worker who is able and willing to put out more labor for less pay than any other worker - within all legally-established limits and standards, of course.
The situation we have right now is that third-world workers can and will perform more labor, more often, and for lower wages than their first-world counterparts. In response, first-world laborers seem to want to be given hand-outs for contributing nothing at all to the profits of corporations that they don't even work for!
"Money for Nothing" is a song, and not a viable business model. |
The simple fact of the matter is, we all have a responsibility to each other - and that includes the rich. Especially in a country like America. Your Ayn Rand horseshit is what's grinding ordinary people into the ground by the rich, who now allow themselves to believe that a conscience is a bad thing.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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Inventor
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Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 5111
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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And if you make enough money, you can buy Congress, have the laws changed, regulations removed, restrictions on making bets you can not cover, and turn the whole economy and government of the people into a casino, with Wall Street playing the House.
The issue is, Congress is the Citizens in action, and they have been bribed to change the law on bribes, so they could be bought, and remove the protections of the Citizens, in favor of the rights of money.
Our system of government is based on the rights of citizens. That is the group it was set up to serve. It was not to empower the Army, Church, King and Nobels, the Rich, it was a protection of the common man from such forces.
Monopoly and inhereted wealth were held in check by laws to protect the people from excess power forming in any place that could, would, undermine the rights of the people.
Congress took bribes to remove those checks on undemocratic power, and the result is a concentration of economic power in the hands of a very few.
Congress is guilty of Treason. |
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jojobean
sacred clown
Joined: Aug 13, 2009
Posts: 3341
Location: In Georgia sipping a virgin pina' colada while the rest of the world is drunk
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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I have always been amazed at how most of the money that is earned in the US is owned by the class with the fewest amount of people.
The more the middle class shrinks and the divide between the haves and havenots grows greater then the worse our economic state will be.
My brother is a parts manager at a auto parts store. He gets 12 dollars an hour....he lives in a camper parked at a friend's house. Many weeks he can barely pay for food after his bills are paid for...he cant find work that will pay him more and his store is outselling all those in the district as does any auto parts store he works for does. He can sell icewater to eskimos with hypothermia. Yet he cant find a store that will pay him what he is worth....some days he goes without eating at all. Of course, he tells me this after the fact.
But his store makes alot of money off of him while paying him not enough to live off of when a loaf of bread in this area can cost up to 5.99 a loaf.
This is not a left/right issue...the elite class is not all rightwingers or leftwingers. The protests are about corruption that is making the rich, richer and the poor. poorer.
The big banks own the goverment which makes the laws and regulation in favor of the elite class's glutton for money while cutting salaries and benefits to workers and continues to erode their rights.
That is what this protest is all about....not poor leaches that wont do anything for themselves.
I am so sick of any real issue in this country being reduced to left/right dribble.
Jojo
Did you know that secertaries have to pay more in tax than many of those in the elite class?
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Fnord
Enigmatic Threadkilling Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 17804
Location: Stendec
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | | The simple fact of the matter is, we all have a responsibility to each other - and that includes the rich. |
Where the hell was all that alleged "responsibility" - and that include among the poor and middle class - when I was homeless for 18 months? Mutual responsibility is a myth. No one gives a damn about me, and I'm just returning the favor.
| Kraichgauer wrote: | | Especially in a country like America. |
America is no more special than any other country. We just have an entrepreneurial spirit ... well, some of us do, anyway. The rest are looking for a handout.
| Kraichgauer wrote: | | Your Ayn Rand horseshit is what's grinding ordinary people into the ground by the rich, who now allow themselves to believe that a conscience is a bad thing. |
Your Jesse Jackson manure is what gives the rich the opportunity to grind down ordinary people, who in turn allow themselves to believe that being as valuable as (or more valuable than) the wages they earn is a bad thing.
It's time for people to put down the remote, shut off the computer, put on some clothes, and either make themselves employable or go into business for themselves. Screw this "You owe me a job! Employment is a right! Share the wealth!" bullsnot. People don't have jobs because there are too many people with no marketable skills for too few jobs that require special learning.
So what if someone has a few billion dollars and you don't? If all you've done to earn a share of it is punch a clock and take up space, then yours is truly a sorry lot. If instead you had started the business, and the billionaire had stolen it from you, then you might have a case. Most likely, the billionaire started the business without you, and then hired you on to work for him for as long as your worth matched or exceeded your wages. After that, you are merely a needless expense.
If you want to be valued, be valuable. It's just that simple.
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* Believing in myths allows the comfort of having an opinion without the discomfort of having to think.
* Believing that you're worthless allows the comfort of having something to complain about without the discomfort of having to change. |
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