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thedaywalker
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2008
Age: 20
Posts: 716
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 Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| we'l probably find out next election |
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Vexcalibur
Proud to be smug as heck
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Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Posts: 5380
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Inuyasha wrote: | | Vexcalibur wrote: | | Inuyasha wrote: | | There have been 700+ arrests (protesters getting violent and/or breaking laws) due to Occupy Wallstreet movements while there were 0 arrests associated with the tea party, enough said. |
This tells me that tea parties are the most likely to be mainstream pawns. |
So you think committing acts of vandalism, violence, and trashing places makes protests legitimate? |
Let me rewrite what I posted so that it becomes evident that you are putting words in my mouth:
| Vexcalibur wrote: | | Inuyasha wrote: | | There have been 700+ arrests (protesters getting violent and/or breaking laws) due to Occupy Wallstreet movements while there were 0 arrests associated with the tea party, enough said. |
This tells me that tea parties are the most likely to be mainstream pawns. |
Ergo, number of arrests by itself is not a great metric. The people in Syria are getting arrested like heck and you won't come to claim they aren't legitimate. You mentioned arrests and only arrests, and when I replied I talked about getting arrested.
I don't think arrests make occupiers legitimate. However, tea party not getting any arrest just tells me the sad true about them, that they are completely mainstream and not shaking any ground with their existence. That mainstream government and corporations are very happy with them.
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Last edited by Vexcalibur on Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Master_Pedant
Rocky Anderson for President!
Joined: Mar 15, 2009
Posts: 4707
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Inuyasha wrote: |
Actually what I said was perfectly relevant, the fact you can't figure out how what I said was relevant when it is so blatently obvious is your problem. |
You really should cease and desist from spamming and derailing this thread. In case you didn't get it the first time....
This thread is about who represents the middle class best, not which protest has more arrests or who litters less.
_________________
http://www.voterocky.org/ |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29328
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Master_Pedant wrote: | | Inuyasha wrote: |
Actually what I said was perfectly relevant, the fact you can't figure out how what I said was relevant when it is so blatently obvious is your problem. |
You really should cease and desist from spamming an derailing this thread. In case you didn't get it the first time....
This thread is about who represents the middle class best, not which protest has more arrests or who litters less. |
So far no one is doing the Middle Class any great service.
ruveyn |
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John_Browning
ON A LIST SOMEWHERE
Joined: Mar 23, 2009
Posts: 4456
Location: The shooting range
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| visagrunt wrote: | | Inuyasha wrote: | | There have been 700+ arrests (protesters getting violent and/or breaking laws) due to Occupy Wallstreet movements while there were 0 arrests associated with the tea party, enough said. |
I think you will find yourself on the wrong side of history with that analysis. (Your "unofficial minor," notwithstanding.)
How many were arrested as a result of the salt satyagraha? How many arrests were made of civil rights protesters in the 1960s? There comes a point when the imposition of law and order becomes the repression of the legitimate expression of civil grievances. It is well established in United States constitutional law that the right to petition through public demonstration cannot be unreasonably constrained.
Now it may well be that these 700+ people were acting beyond the limits of the exercise of their First Amendment rights--but history suggests that governments will exercise force against movements with which it disagrees. |
Speaking their mind is fine. Hippies blocking a critical bridge, keeping people who actually have jobs to get to from getting there, and people who have responsibilities from taking care of them is not cool. It must be nice having enough money to take a trip to NYC without needing a job to pay for it, and being able to spend a a couple weeks camped out in the street since they have no responsibilities to take care of. I sure couldn't do that!
_________________
"Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars."
- Unknown
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
-Sigmund Freud |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12787
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| John_Browning wrote: | | visagrunt wrote: | | Inuyasha wrote: | | There have been 700+ arrests (protesters getting violent and/or breaking laws) due to Occupy Wallstreet movements while there were 0 arrests associated with the tea party, enough said. |
I think you will find yourself on the wrong side of history with that analysis. (Your "unofficial minor," notwithstanding.)
How many were arrested as a result of the salt satyagraha? How many arrests were made of civil rights protesters in the 1960s? There comes a point when the imposition of law and order becomes the repression of the legitimate expression of civil grievances. It is well established in United States constitutional law that the right to petition through public demonstration cannot be unreasonably constrained.
Now it may well be that these 700+ people were acting beyond the limits of the exercise of their First Amendment rights--but history suggests that governments will exercise force against movements with which it disagrees. |
Speaking their mind is fine. Hippies blocking a critical bridge, keeping people who actually have jobs to get to from getting there, and people who have responsibilities from taking care of them is not cool. It must be nice having enough money to take a trip to NYC without needing a job to pay for it, and being able to spend a a couple weeks camped out in the street since they have no responsibilities to take care of. I sure couldn't do that!
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A great number of those protestors are native New Yorkers, and many are unemployed due to the rats their protesting against. Most in fact wouldn't fit anyone's definition of a hippie, as many have families and vary in age and social class. And while there are those who have set up camp, others doubtlessly show up when they can in order to protest, then go back home to their families.
As for the charge of people not being able to make a living due to the protestors; aside from a little congestion early on, nobody was kept from work.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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GoonSquad
Gadfly or Fly Food?
Joined: May 12, 2007
Age: 43
Posts: 3593
Location: International House of Paincakes...
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Jacoby wrote: |
Money in politics isn't the problem tho, it's the power that Washington and the Fed that is the problem. These special interests, corporations, etc. would have nothing to spend their money on if the powers they're trying to influence didn't exist. Not exactly what someone who wants an all encompassing unitary nanny state wants to hear but it is what it is.
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YEAH!!!
Let's dismantle the government so corporations etc. have no regulation! They wouldn't need to bribe anyone if they were allowed to do whatever the hell they wanted and operate unchecked!
Screw the all encompassing nanny state! Let's have all encompassing corporate plutocracy instead! 
_________________
If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed. It is the person who continues in his self-deception and ignorance who is harmed.~Marcus Aurelius |
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Jacoby
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 11, 2007
Posts: 4026
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| GoonSquad wrote: | | Jacoby wrote: |
Money in politics isn't the problem tho, it's the power that Washington and the Fed that is the problem. These special interests, corporations, etc. would have nothing to spend their money on if the powers they're trying to influence didn't exist. Not exactly what someone who wants an all encompassing unitary nanny state wants to hear but it is what it is.
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YEAH!!!
Let's dismantle the government so corporations etc. have no regulation! They wouldn't need to bribe anyone if they were allowed to do whatever the hell they wanted and operate unchecked!
Screw the all encompassing nanny state! Let's have all encompassing corporate plutocracy instead! |
 What do you think we have now? Those regulations enrich these corporations by stifling competition. The big corporations write their own regulations, they subsidize their businesses with our tax money, and then pay nothing back, they completely run the game. The biggest enemies to the free market aren't those unshaven college Marxists, it's big business. |
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GoonSquad
Gadfly or Fly Food?
Joined: May 12, 2007
Age: 43
Posts: 3593
Location: International House of Paincakes...
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Jacoby wrote: | | GoonSquad wrote: | | Jacoby wrote: |
Money in politics isn't the problem tho, it's the power that Washington and the Fed that is the problem. These special interests, corporations, etc. would have nothing to spend their money on if the powers they're trying to influence didn't exist. Not exactly what someone who wants an all encompassing unitary nanny state wants to hear but it is what it is.
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YEAH!!!
Let's dismantle the government so corporations etc. have no regulation! They wouldn't need to bribe anyone if they were allowed to do whatever the hell they wanted and operate unchecked!
Screw the all encompassing nanny state! Let's have all encompassing corporate plutocracy instead! |
What do you think we have now? Those regulations enrich these corporations by stifling competition. The big corporations write their own regulations, they subsidize their businesses with our tax money, and then pay nothing back, they completely run the game. The biggest enemies to the free market aren't those unshaven college Marxists, it's big business. |
Well, at least now corporations have to go to the trouble of bribing people and subverting the system...
And uh... Capitalism (unregulated) is the BIGGEST threat to the free market--read some history for Christsakes!
What we need is a strong government and a good, tough Patrician like Teddy Roosevelt to begin to put things right again.
This is the second Gilded Age my friend.
_________________
If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed. It is the person who continues in his self-deception and ignorance who is harmed.~Marcus Aurelius |
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Jacoby
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 11, 2007
Posts: 4026
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| GoonSquad wrote: | | Jacoby wrote: | | GoonSquad wrote: | | Jacoby wrote: |
Money in politics isn't the problem tho, it's the power that Washington and the Fed that is the problem. These special interests, corporations, etc. would have nothing to spend their money on if the powers they're trying to influence didn't exist. Not exactly what someone who wants an all encompassing unitary nanny state wants to hear but it is what it is.
|
YEAH!!!
Let's dismantle the government so corporations etc. have no regulation! They wouldn't need to bribe anyone if they were allowed to do whatever the hell they wanted and operate unchecked!
Screw the all encompassing nanny state! Let's have all encompassing corporate plutocracy instead! |
What do you think we have now? Those regulations enrich these corporations by stifling competition. The big corporations write their own regulations, they subsidize their businesses with our tax money, and then pay nothing back, they completely run the game. The biggest enemies to the free market aren't those unshaven college Marxists, it's big business. |
Well, at least now corporations have to go to the trouble of bribing people and subverting the system...
And uh... Capitalism is the BIGGEST threat to the free market--read some history for Christsakes!
What we need is a strong government and a good, tough Patrician like Teddy Roosevelt to begin to put things right again.
This is the second Gilded Age my friend. |
They're not subverting the system, they run the system to their benefit and the worst part is they do it under the guise of helping protect the little guy to trick people like you into supporting them. It cannot be be reformed, it can not be fixed. More subsidies, more regulations, and more bailouts is like pouring gasoline on a fire. |
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GoonSquad
Gadfly or Fly Food?
Joined: May 12, 2007
Age: 43
Posts: 3593
Location: International House of Paincakes...
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Jacoby wrote: |
They're not subverting the system, they run the system to their benefit and the worst part is they do it under the guise of helping protect the little guy to trick people like you into supporting them. It cannot be be reformed, it can not be fixed. More subsidies, more regulations, and more bailouts is like pouring gasoline on a fire. |
Okay, so how does dismantling the government/system fix things?
Unchecked capitalism yields things like US Steel and Standard Oil.
Mature markets, free or not, don't produce competition they give us dictatorial monopolies.
How do you break the tyranny of corporations without a powerful, trust busting government?
Because I think that's what we need and that's really at the heart of the 99% movement...
History shows us that government can break corporate power when the people insist on it...
What's the small/weak government alternative?
_________________
If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed. It is the person who continues in his self-deception and ignorance who is harmed.~Marcus Aurelius |
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Jacoby
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 11, 2007
Posts: 4026
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| GoonSquad wrote: | | Jacoby wrote: |
They're not subverting the system, they run the system to their benefit and the worst part is they do it under the guise of helping protect the little guy to trick people like you into supporting them. It cannot be be reformed, it can not be fixed. More subsidies, more regulations, and more bailouts is like pouring gasoline on a fire. |
Okay, so how does dismantling the government/system fix things?
Unchecked capitalism yields things like US Steel and Standard Oil.
Mature markets, free or not, don't produce competition they give us dictatorial monopolies.
How do you break the tyranny of corporations without a powerful, trust busting government?
Because I think that's what we need and that's really at the heart of the 99% movement...
History shows us that government can break corporate power when the people insist on it...
What's the small/weak government alternative? |
Government creates "dictatorial monopolies", the free market increases efficiency and drives prices down.
http://mises.org/daily/2694
here's a fantastic article that you should read on the subject of monopolies and Anti-Trust policy |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29328
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Standard Oil originally produced kerosine that every one could afford. They put the whale oil industry out of business.
They also produced the technology that could produce fuel for cars cheap that everyone could afford. Just remember half the price of gasoline is tax. Big Oil produces gasoline cheap in spite of government taxes and the blackmail we have to pay to OPEC.
ruveyn |
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GoonSquad
Gadfly or Fly Food?
Joined: May 12, 2007
Age: 43
Posts: 3593
Location: International House of Paincakes...
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Jacoby wrote: |
Government creates "dictatorial monopolies", the free market increases efficiency and drives prices down.
http://mises.org/daily/2694
here's a fantastic article that you should read on the subject of monopolies and Anti-Trust policy |
Yeah, I've heard those arguments before... Sure, SO drove the price of oil down. That's how they starved out the competition.
The thing is, they also had a horizontal monopoly between the oil well and the consumer at the point of refining. That let them bleed their suppliers AND starve out their competition at the same time (and at a tidy profit). That limits commerce, and long term, it's a bad thing.
Also, they threatened support industries like railroads, extorting favorable rates and insisting on high rate for competitors.
Standard may not have been screwing consumers directly, but they were definitely screwing lots of folks and undermining the "free market."
A modern example might be Wal-Mart. Sure, Wal-Mart provides low prices, always . But, their domination of the retail market gives them the power to dictate price to their suppliers. I work for one of their suppliers and my job is to keep information secure so that Wal-Mart cannot bleed us anymore than they already do...
Wal-Mart often dictates the profit margins of their suppliers, and as a byproduct they have helped to eviscerate American Manufacturing. That limits commerce. That's the high cost of low prices.
PS
I'm still waiting for an explanation of free market solutions....
Or are you simply denying the problem?
_________________
If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed. It is the person who continues in his self-deception and ignorance who is harmed.~Marcus Aurelius |
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Inuyasha
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 13, 2009
Posts: 9745
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | | John_Browning wrote: | | visagrunt wrote: | | Inuyasha wrote: | | There have been 700+ arrests (protesters getting violent and/or breaking laws) due to Occupy Wallstreet movements while there were 0 arrests associated with the tea party, enough said. |
I think you will find yourself on the wrong side of history with that analysis. (Your "unofficial minor," notwithstanding.)
How many were arrested as a result of the salt satyagraha? How many arrests were made of civil rights protesters in the 1960s? There comes a point when the imposition of law and order becomes the repression of the legitimate expression of civil grievances. It is well established in United States constitutional law that the right to petition through public demonstration cannot be unreasonably constrained.
Now it may well be that these 700+ people were acting beyond the limits of the exercise of their First Amendment rights--but history suggests that governments will exercise force against movements with which it disagrees. |
Speaking their mind is fine. Hippies blocking a critical bridge, keeping people who actually have jobs to get to from getting there, and people who have responsibilities from taking care of them is not cool. It must be nice having enough money to take a trip to NYC without needing a job to pay for it, and being able to spend a a couple weeks camped out in the street since they have no responsibilities to take care of. I sure couldn't do that!
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A great number of those protestors are native New Yorkers, and many are unemployed due to the rats their protesting against. Most in fact wouldn't fit anyone's definition of a hippie, as many have families and vary in age and social class. And while there are those who have set up camp, others doubtlessly show up when they can in order to protest, then go back home to their families.
As for the charge of people not being able to make a living due to the protestors; aside from a little congestion early on, nobody was kept from work.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Sarcasm: Oh so that explains the drugs... |
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