Post 4187611 - (Women forum)

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hyperlexian
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:00 am Post subject:

MasterJedi wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

MasterJedi wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

MasterJedi wrote:

is there also a colored only forum?

are you a throwback to the 1960s? i haven't seen somebody use a word like that since the civil rights movement. you're not doing yourself any favours here.

there is also an Adult forum, a LGBT forum, Parenting forum, a Members Only forum, etc... do you have an issue with those?

I'm saying that others are being the throwbacks by wanting to limit forum usage of others.

once the reasoning was explained to her, she seemed to understand pretty well. looks like the situation is pretty much taken care of.

there aren't any limitations about men going into the Women's forum and posting respectfully, and it isn't even on the table, so you need not worry.

I was explaining it you you. You thought that I was the one who wanted to discriminate.

where did i say that?
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MasterJedi
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:08 am Post subject:

hyperlexian wrote:

MasterJedi wrote:

is there also a colored only forum?

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Burnbridge
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:09 am Post subject:

[trigger warning: may contain upsetting material to sensitive persons] Ok, MasterJedi, it's like this. I used to work in a collective run DIY bike shop. We had tools and parts available, people would fix their own bikes, volunteers were around to show people how to do the work. We had a women/trans only night. A lot of the male members of the collective were offended by the idea of being banned one night out of the week. We had very long discussions about the need to create a "safe space." It's basically a rape/sexual assault issue. Women who have been raped often have problems with male/macho behavior. Be it loud yelling, being "hit on" or pedantic, authoritarian attitudes. Bike shops, like most technical repair services, tend to be dominated by pragmatic males with poor social communication skills (people like me.) Some women felt like they were being banned 7 nights out of the week, because the environment was so hostile to their [unwanted] sensitivities and hang ups. Having a women-only night gave them a chance to use the shop in an environment guaranteed to be free of sexual pressures, and a chance to use the shop where they were guaranteed to be able to hang out there without accidently running into a person who had abused them in the past. Those pressures were an impediment to their learning how to fix bikes. The other 6 days of the week, the shop was open to everybody. Including the abusers, because most of the time the general community doesn't know who the abusers are. Most women would use the shop any old day of the week. But some could only concentrate enough during women's night. Having a women's forum that was only for women would give them a space where they could talk about issues like this without someone else barging into the conversation and calling them sexists. Where the "barging in," itself, is a typically male pattern form of dominance that can prevent women from having meaningful conversations about subjects like this. It is privilege, be it gender privilege or racial privilege, or whatever, that makes it easy for a dominant group to dismiss the concerns of any non-dominant group. Being dismissive to people's lack of privilege, or oblivious to the power of your own privilege, is a distinct characteristic of having privilege. _________________ No dx yet ... AS=171/200,NT=13/200 ... EQ=9/SQ=128 ... AQ=39 ... MB=IntJ Last edited by Burnbridge on Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:10 am; edited 1 time in total

nana80
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:10 am Post subject:

MasterJedi wrote:

Rally? You wouldn't mind being discriminated against? Really?

I'm out. I can't argue against such ignorance.

May I ask weather you are American? Cause there seems to be this big thing about colors in America. I dont know how to forumlate American-Political-corrrect. But in Germany we believe that groups of minorities do have special needs at times. And that they sometimes feel more comfortable to just speak to themseves.

In Germany we have for example sex education groups that may only be attendedby female turkish immigrants and the leader is also a turkish born woman. Because there are simply questions that a turkish woman would never ask when a man or German woman is present. If I respect the setting of such a group am I ignorant? Am I dicriminated? Would it be forbidden due to political-incorrectness in America?

Segregation != Discrimination if both positions are equal.

And if the womens forum is not separated I am fine with that I just think it should be made very clear.

MasterJedi
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:13 am Post subject:

So the Third Reich is alive and well in Germany. _________________ That is my spot, in an ever changing world, it is a single point of consistency. If my life were expressed as a function on a four dimensional Cartesian coordinate system, that spot, from the moment I first sat on it, would be 0-0-0-0.

hyperlexian
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:13 am Post subject:

MasterJedi wrote:

hyperlexian wrote:

MasterJedi wrote:

is there also a colored only forum?

i didn't say you wanted to discriminate. i couldn't believe you used the word "coloured", which i specifically referenced in my post. if you're reading anything about discrimination in my post it's entirely your own imagination.
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hyperlexian
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:18 am Post subject:

Burnbridge wrote:

[trigger warning: may contain upsetting material to sensitive persons]

Ok, MasterJedi, it's like this.

I used to work in a collective run DIY bike shop. We had tools and parts available, people would fix their own bikes, volunteers were around to show people how to do the work.

We had a women/trans only night. A lot of the male members of the collective were offended by the idea of being banned one night out of the week. We had very long discussions about the need to create a "safe space."

It's basically a rape/sexual assault issue. Women who have been raped often have problems with male/macho behavior. Be it loud yelling, being "hit on" or pedantic, authoritarian attitudes. Bike shops, like most technical repair services, tend to be dominated by pragmatic males with poor social communication skills (people like me.) Some women felt like they were being banned 7 nights out of the week, because the environment was so hostile to their [unwanted] sensitivities and hang ups.

Having a women-only night gave them a chance to use the shop in an environment guaranteed to be free of sexual pressures, and a chance to use the shop where they were guaranteed to be able to hang out there without accidently running into a person who had abused them in the past. Those pressures were an impediment to their learning how to fix bikes.

The other 6 days of the week, the shop was open to everybody. Including the abusers, because most of the time the general community doesn't know who the abusers are.

Most women would use the shop any old day of the week. But some could only concentrate enough during women's night.

Having a women's forum that was only for women would give them a space where they could talk about issues like this without someone else barging into the conversation and calling them sexists. Where the "barging in," itself, is a typically male pattern form of dominance that can prevent women from having meaningful conversations about subjects like this.

It is privilege, be it gender privilege or racial privilege, or whatever, that makes it easy for a dominant group to dismiss the concerns of any non-dominant group. Being dismissive to people's lack of privilege, or oblivious to the power of your own privilege, is a distinct characteristic of having privilege.

i was going to shorten this to "awesomely awesome post" when i quoted it, but i couldn't resist quoting your post in its entirety. perfect example, and you've explained the social factors so well.
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MasterJedi
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:21 am Post subject:

so women are afraid of being sexually assaulted or hit upon in open forum? It's a bike shop, not a bar! _________________ That is my spot, in an ever changing world, it is a single point of consistency. If my life were expressed as a function on a four dimensional Cartesian coordinate system, that spot, from the moment I first sat on it, would be 0-0-0-0.

nana80
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:23 am Post subject:

MasterJedi wrote:

So the Third Reich is alive and well in Germany.

Is it allowed to say such things to someone here? I feel like this comment is completely beyond any boundary.

Burnbridge
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:24 am Post subject:

It was very hard for me to understand, personally. The social issues were very complex. A couple years later, I participated in a Men's Group to discuss a lot of those same issues, in a women-free context. It was a lot easier to talk about the issues when we felt like we weren't being judged by female-bodied humans. It seems like men tend to only open up emotionally to women, that women are the designated emotional caregivers in our society. Having an opportunity to open up to other men, to admit fears and regrets, was enlightening. To say the least. _________________ No dx yet ... AS=171/200,NT=13/200 ... EQ=9/SQ=128 ... AQ=39 ... MB=IntJ

hyperlexian
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:25 am Post subject:

MasterJedi wrote:

so women are afraid of being sexually assaulted or hit upon in open forum?

It's a bike shop, not a bar!

in a close-knit community, yes. presumably it's not a bunch of random strangers at the bike shop who have never encountered each other.

MasterJedi, why are you having such issues with this discussion? you've reacted out of proportion to the subject matter several times in the thread. is there something else going on that you are feeling sensitive about this topic?
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Burnbridge
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:30 am Post subject:

MasterJedi wrote:

so women are afraid of being sexually assaulted or hit upon in open forum?

It's a bike shop, not a bar!

Women get hit on and objectified everywhere. At work, on the bus, at the book store, at the bar, riding a bike. Everywhere, all the time. And yeah, it's a bike shop, not a bar, so it's extra not-cool for that kind of crap to happen there. Men tend to be completely unaware of how offensive their behavior can be towards women. It's not that they are always trying to make women uncomfortable. They just don't need to be aware. It isn't traumatic to the men doing the objectifying. To them, it's no big deal.
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Lord Badgerchops
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:59 pm Post subject:

I really don't see why this is a big issue. Sometimes women need a space were they can discuss problems unique to them, and you can at least give them that. MasterJedi, maybe you should read Women's Discussion, and then you would see that there are issues that require sensitivity and a space were said where that is shown. _________________ Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?

MasterJedi
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Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:36 pm Post subject:

people outside whatever you are have opinions - some of which you might not have considered that might be of some assistance.

nana80 wrote:

MasterJedi wrote:

So the Third Reich is alive and well in Germany.

Is it allowed to say such things to someone here? I feel like this comment is completely beyond any boundary.

You don't think that openly practicing discrimination is a little Nazi-ish?
_________________
That is my spot, in an ever changing world, it is a single point of consistency. If my life were expressed as a function on a four dimensional Cartesian coordinate system, that spot, from the moment I first sat on it, would be 0-0-0-0.