AspieRoss
Tufted Titmouse
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Joined: Nov 23, 2011
Posts: 48
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 Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:09 pm Post subject: Time for LG to drop the BT! |
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I know this is not a popular opinion, but here it is.
Gays and Lesbians NEVER get any support from the tens of thousands of Bi-Sexuals out there. NEVER. You never here from self-proclaimed BI's on TV or marching in parades. They don't like us, and avoid associating with us.
So how about we let them have their own alliance. Separate them from the Lesbian Gay Alliance.
Also - Transgenders/Transexuals claim to be born the wrong gender... which is NOT being gay at all.
They should have their own alliance, since they are unique... they don't fit into Straight or Gay alliances, since they claim to be Straight/just born the wrong gender. Again, I don't believe the Lesbian and Gay alliances are being served by including this sub-sect of society into our groups.
So come on all you Gays and Lesbians. BOYCOTT the term LGBT!!
It's time for us to stop trying to be so politically correct. Let's make our groups L/G or G/L groups... and lets finally grop the BT.
Bisexuals don't need a group, since they never identify as BI (at least publicly).
Transexuals need their own group, since their issues are unique.
Last edited by AspieRoss on Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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fraac
Tufted Titmouse
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Joined: Mar 24, 2011
Posts: 1865
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe, but isn't it better to be more inclusive? I think the aim is to eventually have a group including everyone. |
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XFilesGeek
Pretentiousness personified.
Joined: Jul 25, 2010
Posts: 1794
Location: The Oort Cloud
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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If there was a "middle finger" icon on this site, I'd be using it right now.
It's always heart-warming to see disparaged minority groups being disparaging to other minority groups.
Have a lovely Christmas.
_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced." |
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visagrunt
Polymath
Joined: Oct 17, 2009
Age: 45
Posts: 5754
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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I disagree on a number of levels:
1) Splitting up serves the majority's interest. There's little enough common ground between lesbians and gay men, let alone the other queer categories out there. By failing to make common cause with each other, each of us is weakened.
2) Transexualism is certainly different that being gay. But that's why the T is there. Transexuals aren't gay, and the LGBT reminds both us and the straight world that they are different from us. That does not mean that we can't find common cause.
3) Our issues are comparable. It doesn't matter whether you are gay, lesbian, bi or transgendered, expanding the definition of marriage is a matter in which we all have a stake. Ensuring that we can be adoptive parents if we chose--or retain custody of our biological children is a matter in which we all have a stake. When we support a Transgendered initiative to allow an FTM to describe himself as male on his identity document, we serve the policy interest that says that we are defined by the traits that we choose, rather than the traits that are arbitrarily imposed upon us.
4) Gay men have an appalling track record when it comes to the inclusion of bisexuals in our community. Gay men have been denying the existence of bisexuality for decades ("Bi now, gay later!") Many gay men used "bi" as a cover before coming out, and have projected that cowardice onto everyone else who wears the label. Is it any wonder that bisexuals are reticent to don it? By failing to ensure that they are included within their movement, we create the implication that their participation is dispensible.
I find your sentiments about transexuals to be deplorable. Even if I were to accept your notion that including gender dysphoria creates an implication of mental illness, the correct approach is one of compassion, not dissociation. I don't want a political movement founded on the principle, "Sorry, you can't join our cause, you'll make us look bad."
For centuries we have lived at the margins of society. Now, just as we are beginning to take our proper place, this is not the time to abandon those with whom we have made common cause just because we're doing fine.
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--James |
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Mysty
Phoenix
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Joined: Jun 25, 2008
Age: 43
Posts: 1999
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, while being transgender (or transexual) is not at all the same as being gay, it's also not totally separate. Every transgender person who has a sexual preference for one gender or the other is in some sense homosexual. They have a choice between living as their biological gender, or as the gender they feel. In one of those two choices, they are homosexual. Transgender people aren't imune from the desire for sexual relationships.
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not aspie, not NT, somewhere in between
Aspie Quiz: 110 Aspie, 103 Neurotypical.
Used to be more autistic than I am now. |
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AstroGeek
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 29, 2011
Age: 19
Posts: 1477
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Um, what about a bit of solidarity? We all face similar issues of discrimination, so we should all support each other. To make a political analogy, we're like a coalition government consisting of Greens, Social Democrats, and Socialists (a common situation in Northern Europe). All different ideologies, but they have common interests so it is mutually beneficial for them to support each other. What you are proposing makes me think of the situation of the left-wing in Britain--dozens of separate, warring parties with with similar goals but a complete loathing for each other. And all totally irrelevant to society at large. Not surprisingly, Britain is one of the few countries in Europe without a hard-core socialist party as part of parliament. By aligning themselves, they'd be much more effective in achieving their goals. And the same is true for LGBT people. Even when we have different goals, they are not contradictory so everyone benefits from supporting each other. |
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Jersh
Emu Egg
Joined: Aug 22, 2011
Age: 29
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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Troll grade: B+
I hope you aren't serious, but just in case you are, consider for a second how much you sound like one of those conservative a**holes who tells all the god fearing straights that us gays are fundamentally different than them. That their sex has god's approval and ours is the devil's mischief. Pretty crazy huh? Yup.
So why don't we be thankful for the allies we have and focus on getting everyone on board with the idea that all humans are more alike than we are different. The diversity of the members of the LGBTQ....(and whatever other letters they've added lately) group is a powerful force in showing everyone that traditional gender/sex roles are just one side of the story. |
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dogslife
Toucan
Joined: Nov 01, 2011
Posts: 266
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:29 pm Post subject: Re: Time for LG to drop the BT! |
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| AspieRoss wrote: | | You never here from self-proclaimed BI's on TV or marching in parades. They don't like us, and avoid associating with us. |
Yeah, because many gay/lesbian people accuse bisexual people of "just claiming bisexuality to be trendy" and/or think it's literally impossible for anyone to actually be bisexual and that they're just "gay and in denial."
| AspieRoss wrote: | Basically including T's make us Gays/Lesbians look mentally ill.
(personally I think T's are just repressed gays who are afraid to admit it, but I digress). And yes I do think that people who think they are born the wrong gender are mentally ill - girls can be boyish and boys can be girlish, without actually changing your gender. |
Could you BE more transphobic? Wow. Just... wow. Practically speechless at this. Incredibly rude and disrespectful of transgender people like myself. Also, do you realize that there are gay transgender people? Not all transgender people like the opposite gender. I have good friends who are trans guys and are gay (ie: like other men) and friends who are trans women who are lesbian. So no, your theory is 100% wrong. Also, transsexual people are not, by default, "mentally ill," and I find it disturbing that you would use that as an insult anyway on a website that exists by and for people who are not neurotypical! |
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Fnord
Enigmatic Threadkilling Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 17899
Location: Stendec
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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From the Other Side of the Fence...
When Prop 8 was defeated, there was much discussion in the straight community as to what the causes may be. One underlying theme in every discussion seemed to be that the "LGBT Movement" was fragmented and barely holding together - that not only were the Anti-8 people focused on their own particular form of sexual expression (L, G, B, or T), but that they seemed unconcerned with anything outside their particular social groups.
Now, whether this observation is valid or not, if you want to achieve equal legal footing with Straights, you must cooperate in spite of your differences! It's that old Ben Franklin adage in play; the one that goes, "We must hang together, gentlemen... else, we shall most assuredly hang separately".
Without cohesiveness, your fight for legally-recognized equality will take longer and be more difficult.
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* Believing in myths allows the comfort of having an opinion without the discomfort of having to think.
* Believing that you're worthless allows the comfort of having something to complain about without the discomfort of having to change. |
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Burnbridge
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 25, 2011
Age: 37
Posts: 971
Location: Columbus, Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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Hey AspieRoss, I don't think you have to worry about being unpopular with that opinion.
As an asexual queergendered person with male anatomy who is indiscriminate about the physical characteristics of the romantic partners I've had¹, I sure have received a lot of contempt and derision from cisgendered heterosexuals who tell me that I am "faking it." "Oh, you're not really gay" or "you're totally gay and just won't admit it" were the popular bullying insults.
Frankly, I find hormonal attraction to any physical body type to be incomprehensible, even though it is by far the societal norm whether it be homo or hetero or trans. People are only interesting to me because of their brains. I didn't like going to pride because it always felt like a hormonal, physical "objectification fest" to me, which made me feel very out of sorts. But most of the bisexuals I knew (and I knew a LOT of them) did go to pride, even though the more traditional queers would constantly insult them.
Do I belong in the GBLT crowd at all? I don't even know. But xenophobia sure doesn't win any points with me.
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¹ - An asexual romantic? Is that even possible? Sure is. Do your homework and look it up.
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No dx yet ... AS=171/200,NT=13/200 ... EQ=9/SQ=128 ... AQ=39 ... MB=IntJ |
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Apple_in_my_Eye
I don't remember
Joined: May 08, 2008
Age: 44
Posts: 3947
Location: in my brain
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:05 am Post subject: |
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Ugh, so little energy to respond to all of the OP.
So the B's an T's don't help? Are they welcome to help? Or are the B's derided as fence-sitters and cowards who are not to be trusted. And are the "trannies" derided as -- what did you call them? -- pedophiles and deviants.
Oh, and there's also things like ENDA (employment non-discrimination act) having the protections for T's stripped out -- it was justified as a neccessary move to insure it's passage. So, OP, you are already getting your wish in small doses. I've read some gender/trans related boards for years and some T's were very embittered by that and a lot of other things.
[sarcasm]It's too bad it's not like the good old days where only the concerns and difficulties of gay men mattered. But now the lesbians and these others have shoehorned their way in. What do gay men and even lesbians really have in common, besides being oppressed for similar reasons? There really isn't any other reason for them to have to ever have anything to do with each other. I mean the L's didn't have to help out caring for people w/AIDS back in the day, but they did anyway. What suckers -- they should've kept all that energy and compassion for themselves. That what Ayn Rand would've done, after all.
So, the LBT's might as well go off and fight their own fights. It's not like they were really marginalized before.[/sarcasm] |
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AspieRoss
Tufted Titmouse
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Joined: Nov 23, 2011
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:09 pm Post subject: Let me Clarify this complicated issue. |
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Maybe it came out wrong, but what I meant to say was that being all-inclusive means that we must include everyone who is non-straight... so including Pedos/Animal lovers/Bigamists etc. This is why it took so long for gays to get basic civil rights. If your notion is that we MUST include all non-straights into the GBLT alliances, etc, than we MUST include EVERYONE.
This is why Prop 8 Passed. (Besides the fact that the Mormon church funded the California proposal).
AND I don't think its the gay community that is keeping Bisexuals away.... its the Male Bisexuals who troll the gay chat rooms looking for love on the DownLow. They are afraid to admit who they are in private/let alone in public.
Pedos have NAMBLA, so they don't need LGBT groups.... Transgenders/Transexuals need much more support than any Gay group can give. Personally I just can't see that any of us were born wrong. (There are some people who think they should not have been born with both legs or arms, so they cut them off...is this okay???)
Nazis/Eugenicists told gay people they were born the wrong sex and attempted crude sex change operations to "correct" them. I just don't agree with the idea that you were born WRONG!
I was born gay, so now any right-winger can just say, oh you were born the wrong sex - your not gay. I was not Born WRONG.
That is an insult to me and to all of "god's creations" or whatever you believe in.
its funny how we talk about our inability to be "social" with people, and how we are always misunderstood by neuro-typicals, but the instant one of us posts something we don't all agree with,,, certain members talk about banning members, instead of opening a dialogue and trying to help them learn/and maybe learn something ourselves.
My point for this post was NOT to get anyone mad at me. Believe me, being a gayAspie, I get enough of that.
My point was that Bisexuals and Transexuals (Sorry to all the Transexuals out there, I did NOT mean to offend you) would be better
served by having their OWN chat rooms and support groups, because their issues are Different than Gay/Lesbian issues. Obviously we need to HELP each other out whenever we can, but maybe having a hyper-focussed support group would be better than having one large group focus mostly on gay/lesbian issues and ignoring the Transgender issues. (For instance- Most gay men I have talked to NEVER want to get married, they just want equal rights/benefits... it was really the Lesbians who pushed for gay marriage)
Personally it would be nice if ALL the Anti-Gay Sodomy Laws were overturned... this to me is more pressing of a concern then the ability to sign a marriage contract. There are some states in the US where you can be jailed for committing sodomy with another willing same-sex adult, yet if you did the same act with an opposite sex member, then its legal! I mean come one -WTF!
I think as gays or people with Autism or Aspergers or any other "label" - We need to get the message out that we were BORN THIS WAY and that WE ARE NOT MISTAKES!!!!
again, I apologize if I came off as a right-winger,, I am not. (I actually believe both left and right wingers are wrong,,too caught up in party bullsht to do what is right for society. Political parties work together against US. -example: Predatory Lenders/Banks destroyed the lives of thousands of homebuyers, yet the Politicians bailed THEM out... not the people who were preyed upon). |
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AspieRoss
Tufted Titmouse
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Joined: Nov 23, 2011
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:25 pm Post subject: It's similar to the HIV/AIDS groups. |
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I think i figured out why LGBT are grouped together.
HIV and AIDS are different, but can be the same (people can have HIV and not have AIDS, people can have AIDS and test negative for HIV and people can have HIV and have AIDS) These 2 acronyms always bothered me, being put together like they are ONE thing.
They are NOT, they are 2 different things. HIV is a virus, AIDS is a syndrome (which some call a disease).
I can't stand when reporters talk about HIV/AIDS and don't pronounce the AND inbetween them. ( / = and OR or)
Maybe that's why the LGBT thing gets to me, LGBT people are related, but different. Having a mind that needs to categorize makes me want to have separate categories/groups for each. After reading some heart felt posts, I agree, we do need to HELP eachother out and not ostracize each other. I think that includes allowing for differing opinions and making our arguements without name-calling or ridiculing.
again, I apologize to anyone that I offended with my first post. My intention was to open dialogue, not to offend. |
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AspieRoss
Tufted Titmouse
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Joined: Nov 23, 2011
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:39 pm Post subject: Is it better to work from within the political parties? |
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Just a thought:
Would it be better for LGBTQ groups to get into politics and get into office to change the laws,,, or should we just keep lobbying the current politicians for our rights and hope someday things will change?
I think it's like 3rd party candidates in the USA. We need to start voting for 3rd party candidates for all of our local elections first, then get some 3rd party mayors, governors and eventually senators... and the president! How many of you ever voted for a third party for a local election? Voting for the same 2 puppets will NOT change anything. Look at our country. We were promised change and got an escalation of the previous regime's policies. Thanks to Mr. Barry Soetoro. |
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Fnord
Enigmatic Threadkilling Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 17899
Location: Stendec
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Pedophiles rape children, make or enjoy pornography featuring rape of children, fantasize about raping children, or any combination of the foregoing - that is what's wrong with them, and that makes them horrible people.
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* Believing in myths allows the comfort of having an opinion without the discomfort of having to think.
* Believing that you're worthless allows the comfort of having something to complain about without the discomfort of having to change. |
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