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readingbetweenlines
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02 Dec 2011, 12:54 pm

I'm more of a cat person really but I would like to encourage you to get the dog, in whatever capacity. You sound like a responsible individual and I'm sure you would take good care of it . I know nothing about this whole ESA etc thing so for me that does not come onto it. In the past I've been really low many times while living on my own and it was pretty much the cat that kept me going, getting up, going to the shops to buy food, and so on. So go for it.


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02 Dec 2011, 3:23 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Were are you getting your information about this? I gave the link to were I got my info so yeah if there is anything contrary to what I've found I would like to go over that to.


Having read the federal laws on the topic. (If you want me to find the relevant laws, I'll do so again, but don't have the link saved)

Also, every website that I've read on ESAs (which has been quite a few) having agreed with me.

This is a topic I've been researching because I plan on getting an ESA as soon as I can afford taking care of it.

Specifically from the website you're listing even says
nsarco.com wrote:
95% of the time, if your ESA is wearing service animal patches and the NSAR photo ID cards, public places will not confront you, but automatically recognize and accept your ESA as a service animal, despite their limited protection under federal law. That means you can take your ESA with you into public places almost all the time with no hassle. If, however, an employee (pet police) asks you about your "service animal," discovers it is an ESA, and knows the law (very rare), they can rightfully deny your ESA entrance. Having a letter from your licensed mental health professional prescribing an ESA will often pave the way for your entrance even in these cases.


Also from the website you're referring to
nsarco.com wrote:
Because an emotional support animal (ESA) is not considered a "working" or animal, they and their handlers aren't afforded the same rights and protections under federal law (ADA) as working service animals. Despite the definition differences between service animals and emotional support animals, emotional support animals do qualify for special rights related to housing and traveling.


Which is exactly what I had been saying. They do not have the legal support for going into public, they have the legal rights for housing and traveling specifically.

Other things you need to know:

The definition of service animal is available here.

Note that the legal definition of a service animal does not include any registration like the website you're linking to is selling. This is unfortunately a rather common scam. It is also exactly what leads to the inappropriate "service animal" that was mentioned earlier in this thread. It isn't too bad, because it does admit that its not actually giving you anything other than things that make it look like its a service dog, but still, realize what it is and what it isn't.

Just having a mental illness does not qualify someone for being disabled. You have written enough on here that it seems like you are quite possibly disabled by your PTSD/depression, however not everyone with clinical depression is disabled by it. Not everyone who is suicidal is legally disabled. The website you are referring to does not admit this fact and is preying on people who do not even would legally be considered able to have ESAs or service animals but who do have mental illnesses.


I do think that you looking into an ESA makes sense, but you need to know this actually entails. Just saying "I have depression and have paid you $65" does not mean that your dog has legal rights. Just saying that your dog is an ESA does not mean that it legally has the rights to be in public places like a service animal has. Just saying that a dog is a service animal through one of these registration sites doesn't even mean that it qualifies as one. Do more research on this subject.



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02 Dec 2011, 3:40 pm

Tuttle wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Were are you getting your information about this? I gave the link to were I got my info so yeah if there is anything contrary to what I've found I would like to go over that to.


Having read the federal laws on the topic. (If you want me to find the relevant laws, I'll do so again, but don't have the link saved)

Also, every website that I've read on ESAs (which has been quite a few) having agreed with me.

This is a topic I've been researching because I plan on getting an ESA as soon as I can afford taking care of it.

Specifically from the website you're listing even says
nsarco.com wrote:
95% of the time, if your ESA is wearing service animal patches and the NSAR photo ID cards, public places will not confront you, but automatically recognize and accept your ESA as a service animal, despite their limited protection under federal law. That means you can take your ESA with you into public places almost all the time with no hassle. If, however, an employee (pet police) asks you about your "service animal," discovers it is an ESA, and knows the law (very rare), they can rightfully deny your ESA entrance. Having a letter from your licensed mental health professional prescribing an ESA will often pave the way for your entrance even in these cases.


Also from the website you're referring to
nsarco.com wrote:
Because an emotional support animal (ESA) is not considered a "working" or animal, they and their handlers aren't afforded the same rights and protections under federal law (ADA) as working service animals. Despite the definition differences between service animals and emotional support animals, emotional support animals do qualify for special rights related to housing and traveling.


Which is exactly what I had been saying. They do not have the legal support for going into public, they have the legal rights for housing and traveling specifically.

Other things you need to know:

The definition of service animal is available here.

Note that the legal definition of a service animal does not include any registration like the website you're linking to is selling. This is unfortunately a rather common scam. It is also exactly what leads to the inappropriate "service animal" that was mentioned earlier in this thread. It isn't too bad, because it does admit that its not actually giving you anything other than things that make it look like its a service dog, but still, realize what it is and what it isn't.

Just having a mental illness does not qualify someone for being disabled. You have written enough on here that it seems like you are quite possibly disabled by your PTSD/depression, however not everyone with clinical depression is disabled by it. Not everyone who is suicidal is legally disabled. The website you are referring to does not admit this fact and is preying on people who do not even would legally be considered able to have ESAs or service animals but who do have mental illnesses.


I do think that you looking into an ESA makes sense, but you need to know this actually entails. Just saying "I have depression and have paid you $65" does not mean that your dog has legal rights. Just saying that your dog is an ESA does not mean that it legally has the rights to be in public places like a service animal has. Just saying that a dog is a service animal through one of these registration sites doesn't even mean that it qualifies as one. Do more research on this subject.


Well I suffer from mental illness, and considering that an emotinal support animal is for well, emotional support I don't see how I would not qualify. Also if I can take it out in public and not be harrased about it 95% of the time thats fine with me, I can deal with being denied entrance to places 5% of the time I have experianced worse things then that so it wont bother me any.

and I could not find a definition of a service animal anywhere on that site you linked me to.....I was able to determine according to that website that I am technically disabled.

So far I have not seen anything that says ESA's do not have any rights to be in public just less rights than a regular service dog. Is there a law or something that specifically prohibits ESAs in public in all states? If not I don't see why I should not go through with this.


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02 Dec 2011, 3:56 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Well I suffer from mental illness, and considering that an emotinal support animal is for well, emotional support I don't see how I would not qualify. Also if I can take it out in public and not be harrased about it 95% of the time thats fine with me, I can deal with being denied entrance to places 5% of the time I have experianced worse things then that so it wont bother me any.


Mental Illness != Disability. You must be disabled to qualify for an ESA.
I'm not saying that you don't qualify. I'm saying that the website you're referring to is wrong. If its wrong about that then I don't trust the website.

Quote:
So far I have not seen anything that says ESA's do not have any rights to be in public just less rights than a regular service dog. Is there a law or something that specifically prohibits ESAs in public in all states? If not I don't see why I should not go through with this.


They have rights to do with housing and transportation. Those are explicitly stated. They don't have rights about being in public. No law specifically prohibits them. No law specifically prohibits a pet either. The rights they have are the same as a pet. A business can choose to allow or disallow a pet to enter.

What you need to be careful with in this is that misrepresenting a dog as a service dog is illegal.



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02 Dec 2011, 4:05 pm

Tuttle wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Well I suffer from mental illness, and considering that an emotinal support animal is for well, emotional support I don't see how I would not qualify. Also if I can take it out in public and not be harrased about it 95% of the time thats fine with me, I can deal with being denied entrance to places 5% of the time I have experianced worse things then that so it wont bother me any.


Mental Illness != Disability. You must be disabled to qualify for an ESA.
I'm not saying that you don't qualify. I'm saying that the website you're referring to is wrong. If its wrong about that then I don't trust the website.

Quote:
So far I have not seen anything that says ESA's do not have any rights to be in public just less rights than a regular service dog. Is there a law or something that specifically prohibits ESAs in public in all states? If not I don't see why I should not go through with this.


They have rights to do with housing and transportation. Those are explicitly stated. They don't have rights about being in public. No law specifically prohibits them. No law specifically prohibits a pet either. The rights they have are the same as a pet. A business can choose to allow or disallow a pet to enter.

What you need to be careful with in this is that misrepresenting a dog as a service dog is illegal.


Its wrong about what? that you have to have a valid reason to have an ESA?.........and according to the website you linked me to my depression, anxiety, PTSD is disabiling enough to define me as disabled. But that is beside the point because an Emotional Support Animal is to help with mental illnesses like depression so even if one with depression is not technically disabled they still qualify. For a Service Dog you need to have a more obvious disability because a regular service dog has to be trained to do specific things for the individual.

Ok so if they don't have rights to be in public.......if I would only be questioned about 5% of the time, what would be so bad about that? Also if there was to be legal action taken they would have to take it against that website for providing wrong information but until I see something that actually confirms the website I was on is inaccurate I am going to assume its not a total scam.

I would also like to see a source for your claim that they rights they have are the same as a pet?


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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 02 Dec 2011, 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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02 Dec 2011, 4:05 pm

I had a small dog which I just put in a bag when I got on a bus, she was really smart and never made a sound



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02 Dec 2011, 4:08 pm

Surfman wrote:
I had a small dog which I just put in a bag when I got on a bus, she was really smart and never made a sound


thats not a bad idea.


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02 Dec 2011, 4:09 pm

I have Sydney my border collie as my official service dog, she helps me allot just being there.

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02 Dec 2011, 4:18 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Its wrong about what? that you have to have a valid reason to have an ESA?.........and according to the website you linked me to my depression, anxiety, PTSD is disabiling enough to define me as disabled. But that is beside the point because an Emotional Support Animal is to help with mental illnesses like depression so even if one with depression is not technically disabled they still qualify. For a Service Dog you need to have a more obvious disability because a regular service dog has to be trained to do specific things for the individual.



It's wrong because an ESA requires disability, not just mental illness. It's not necessarily relevant in your case, but it is something that needs to be clear.

Quote:
Ok so if they don't have rights to be in public.......if I would only be questioned about 5% of the time, what would be so bad about that? Also if there was to be legal action taken they would have to take it against that website for providing wrong information but until I see something that actually confirms the website I was on is inaccurate I am going to assume its not a total scam.


If you want to take it into public without it having legal rights, you can do so. You need to be aware that it doesn't actually have any of those rights. You need to be careful to not misrepresent it as having rights it doesn't have.

Quote:
I would also like to see a source for your claim that they rights they have are the same as a pet?


Service animals are explicitly given rights. Go up one level from the page I linked to before (or here) and there's some information about that.

ESAs are not explicitly given those rights. In fact they're explicitly stated to not be service animals. The default set of rights is those that are the same as pets. Service animals are given more than that. The rights that ESAs are given beyond those of pets do not include ones that have to do with being in businesses and public locations like that.

People can choose to let them in. It's their call. They can choose to let some pets in and not others as well. However, legally they only have rights beyond those of a pet when it comes to housing and transportation.



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02 Dec 2011, 4:38 pm

Tuttle wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

Its wrong about what? that you have to have a valid reason to have an ESA?.........and according to the website you linked me to my depression, anxiety, PTSD is disabiling enough to define me as disabled. But that is beside the point because an Emotional Support Animal is to help with mental illnesses like depression so even if one with depression is not technically disabled they still qualify. For a Service Dog you need to have a more obvious disability because a regular service dog has to be trained to do specific things for the individual.



It's wrong because an ESA requires disability, not just mental illness. It's not necessarily relevant in your case, but it is something that needs to be clear.

Ok well can you provide a souce that says a disability is required to have an ESA? I think you might be getting ESAs confused with Service Animals because an ESA is for emotional support for people with mental illnesses requiring them to need emotinal support the animal will provide.

But that aside according th the website you linked me to I would be disabled.


Quote:
Ok so if they don't have rights to be in public.......if I would only be questioned about 5% of the time, what would be so bad about that? Also if there was to be legal action taken they would have to take it against that website for providing wrong information but until I see something that actually confirms the website I was on is inaccurate I am going to assume its not a total scam.


If you want to take it into public without it having legal rights, you can do so. You need to be aware that it doesn't actually have any of those rights. You need to be careful to not misrepresent it as having rights it doesn't have.

But if no one is going to harras me about it, why should I be so concerned with that.......quite frankly I don't think the feds always come up with the best laws or regulations so I am not going to point out to everyone who says something about the dog that its actually an ESA that technically can be barred from entering buildings in public as its unessisary.

Quote:
I would also like to see a source for your claim that they rights they have are the same as a pet?


Service animals are explicitly given rights. Go up one level from the page I linked to before (or here) and there's some information about that.

ESAs are not explicitly given those rights. In fact they're explicitly stated to not be service animals. The default set of rights is those that are the same as pets. Service animals are given more than that. The rights that ESAs are given beyond those of pets do not include ones that have to do with being in businesses and public locations like that.

People can choose to let them in. It's their call. They can choose to let some pets in and not others as well. However, legally they only have rights beyond those of a pet when it comes to housing and transportation.


That is the same website you already linked me to......is there a specific page on the website, because its really hard to find anything on te page you linked me to related to service animals I can try to keep looking but don't know that it will work.


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02 Dec 2011, 4:47 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Ok well can you provide a souce that says a disability is required to have an ESA? I think you might be getting ESAs confused with Service Animals because an ESA is for emotional support for people with mental illnesses requiring them to need emotinal support the animal will provide.

But that aside according th the website you linked me to I would be disabled.



Like I said, it might not be relevant in your case, its still worth knowing.

Here is one website that specifies the requirement of disability. It's the first that came up with the google search of "Emotional Support Animal" for me.
Quote:
But if no one is going to harras me about it, why should I be so concerned with that.......quite frankly I don't think the feds always come up with the best laws or regulations so I am not going to point out to everyone who says something about the dog that its actually an ESA that technically can be barred from entering buildings in public as its unessisary.


It depends on whether it matters for you. It also matters to know the laws even if you disagree with them.

For example, I'm looking at getting an ESA. I'm also unable to drive and dependent on a bus system that only has hourly buses or getting rides from other people within the city and a commuter rail ride of about 2 hours to get to some places. If I was to go somewhere, brought an ESA with me, and was denied entrance because of it, then just going home and dropping it off is not a simple task.

Quote:
That is the same website you already linked me to......is there a specific page on the website, because its really hard to find anything on te page you linked me to related to service animals I can try to keep looking but don't know that it will work.


Yes, it is. It's hard to read and find things in because its legal-speak rather than normal speak. If you want a less formal source, then as a whole the stuff at servicedogcentral (which I linked to above) is useful.



Last edited by Tuttle on 02 Dec 2011, 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sweetleaf
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02 Dec 2011, 4:48 pm

From the website you linked me to:

6)Inquiries. A public accommodation shall not ask about the nature or extent of a person's disability, but may make two inquiries to determine whether an animal qualifies as a service animal. A public accommodation may ask if the animal is required because of a disability and what work or task the animal has been trained to perform. A public accommodation shall not require documentation, such as proof that the animal has been certified, trained, or licensed as a service animal. Generally, a public accommodation may not make these inquiries about a service animal when it is readily apparent that an animal is trained to do work or perform tasks for an individual with a disability ( e.g., the dog is observed guiding an individual who is blind or has low vision, pulling a person's wheelchair, or providing assistance with stability or balance to an individual with an observable mobility disability).

Well that's not too hard, if someone inquires about those things I would say its for required emotional support, and pull out that letter that I am sure the therapist I was going to will probably write for me if I call him. and if they still feel it is correct to deny me entrance I will leave and not trouble them any further.

and I still cannot find were on that site it says anything about you needing more then a mental illness such as depression, anxiety, PTSD or all three like I have in order to have an ESA.


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02 Dec 2011, 4:55 pm

Tuttle wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Ok well can you provide a souce that says a disability is required to have an ESA? I think you might be getting ESAs confused with Service Animals because an ESA is for emotional support for people with mental illnesses requiring them to need emotinal support the animal will provide.

But that aside according th the website you linked me to I would be disabled.



Like I said, it might not be relevant in your case, its still worth knowing.

Here is one website that specifies the requirement of disability. It's the first that came up with the google search of "Emotional Support Animal" for me.
Quote:
But if no one is going to harras me about it, why should I be so concerned with that.......quite frankly I don't think the feds always come up with the best laws or regulations so I am not going to point out to everyone who says something about the dog that its actually an ESA that technically can be barred from entering buildings in public as its unessisary.


It depends on whether it matters for you. It also matters to know the laws even if you disagree with them.

For example, I'm looking at getting an ESA. I'm also unable to drive and dependent on a bus system that only has hourly buses or getting rides from other people within the city and a commuter rail ride of about 2 hours to get to some places. If I was to go somewhere, brought an ESA with me, and was denied entrance because of it, then just going home and dropping it off is not a simple task.

Quote:
That is the same website you already linked me to......is there a specific page on the website, because its really hard to find anything on te page you linked me to related to service animals I can try to keep looking but don't know that it will work.


Yes, it is. It's hard to read and find things in because its legal-speak rather than normal speak. If you want a less formal source, then as a whole the stuff at servicedogcentral (which I linked to above) is useful.


I would probably just wait for the next bus.......but as a rule the bus drivers around where I live aren't going to say anything, especially if looks official. I don't feel that is really misrepresenting anything because if they want to deny me entrance they can and I'll take another bus or something. In order for me to be misrepresenting it I would have to no have depression, anxiety or PTSD and have no need for the emotinal support the dog would provide.


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02 Dec 2011, 4:59 pm

I hope that all goes well for you and that you are able to have that dog as a service dog. :)


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