dmm1010
Toucan
Joined: Nov 22, 2007
Age: 32
Posts: 253
Location: Salem, WI, US
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 Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| Tequila wrote: | | [...] I think in Britain there is a big lack of people taking responsibility for their actions which also explains it. |
The general trend, in First World countries at least, appears to be toward "protection" from responsibility. |
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Robdemanc
Phoenix
Joined: May 31, 2010
Posts: 2294
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| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Is American conservatisim the same as British conservatism? In Britain our conservative party care only about themselves and a few rich people. They say they want people to be hard working and inovative but they don't help them to do so. They give crap education and have been doing for many years.
Labour are not much better but at least they sound like they care about the ordinary person. Lib Dems don't even need to be mentioned when it comes to politics. |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26052
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Robdemanc wrote: | | In Britain our conservative party care only about themselves and a few rich people. They say they want people to be hard working and inovative but they don't help them to do so. |
Which is why I don't vote Conservative as they're not a proper conservative party. |
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xenon13
Phoenix
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Joined: Dec 14, 2008
Posts: 3079
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| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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My own theory about conservatives of today is that they have over the course of their lives, met a large number of people they consider to be "bad" - either they aren't smart, they aren't savvy, they are lazy, or whatever. The idea of a society without poverty thus outrages them because they see those "bad" people as deserving punishment - punishment through poverty, a punishment that will serve a a cautionary tale to others to stick to the path of righteousness.
Their belief in the Just World Fallacy leads them to think that these bad people will be punished through a perfect market society whilst those who are not "bad" will be spared. They want that "real rain to wash all the scum off the streets", they are into punishment. Faced with a choice between a better economy and punishing the "wicked", they'd choose number two in a heartbeat. They are into "reckonings" and the like. This is based on what I have seen from them personally.
Just the other day I heard talk of what this crisis needs is some kind of brutal reckoning, which presumably will weed out and destroy millions of people. It's brutal, it's nasty and it's dangerous. Their mode of thinking also veers dangerously into eugenics, this idea that society cannot afford these "parasites" who consume any kind of social services and must be done away with. This is based also on another characteristic of these so-called conservatives, and that's that they overestimate the amount of scarcity in society, they seem to think we're on the brink of a mediaeval famine or something, forgetting the massive advances made, that we have small numbers of people producing practically all the essentials. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12780
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:48 am Post subject: Re: Clarification |
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| georgewilson wrote: | Just some points to clear up:
First, merry Christmas and happy holidays.
Second, I live in Eastern Iowa, USA right now, so my perspective on conservatism comes from experiencing the highly evangelical/Catholic/Lutheran strain found here, not so much the British Tories; much of the replies seem to refer to the latter, so please do not presume any specific judgment on British politics here but apply what you will as appropriate.
Third, I respect spirituality but feel that organized religion can impose socially conservative ideas and even endorse socially organized power structures on "impressionable young people." However, I am under the impression, as an Aspie who has been told a lot of things by the NT majority, that while we are stereotyped as gullible in terms of individual facts or social situations, we are well-equipped to adjust our ideas to new knowledge and therefore difficult to indoctrinate to a lasting degree, therefore I wonder how we could ever be acclimatized to tradition in an organic way. I could attempt to follow traditions or express the "correct" dogmatic viewpoint on certain things as organized religion or any other social code dictates, but I doubt that I could ever, even with years of trying to pick up the habit, make the process natural, as it just isn't in what I see as my neurology to do so. It would be more of a strain than it's worth, but I see how an NT would feel "natural" doing it if that's how they're wired. |
My pastor hails from your neck of the woods, and he's fond of saying that you don't get any more conservative than Lutherans from eastern Iowa. He's also said that other Missouri Synod Lutherans are of the opinion that the white on the Rocky's isn't snow, but baptismal certificates thrown out the train window by Lutherans heading to the Pacific Northwest - where I live.
As my pastor has been living in the Spokane area of Washington state for a number of years now, the conservatism he had been raised with has diminished. He even told me that when he went back home to visit with his now late mother, and she had told him that they had to vote for the Christian Republicans, he responded with, just because someone wears their Christianity on their sleeve doesn't mean that they're true believers. In fact, he has had good things to say about our current president, and views the religious right with dislike and suspicion. He had also told me that the lack of religiosity here in the Northwest is refreshing in that back home in Iowa, people went to church because they felt that they had to, whereas here, people go to church because they want to. I think the old adage would apply to my pastor: you can't go home again.
I have suspicions that my brand of Missouri Synod Lutheranism wouldn't exactly be acceptable by my Midwestern brethren.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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georgewilson
Butterfly
Joined: Aug 20, 2007
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: Clarification |
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[quote="Kraichgauer"] | georgewilson wrote: | Just some points to clear up:
My pastor hails from your neck of the woods, and he's fond of saying that you don't get any more conservative than Lutherans from eastern Iowa. He's also said that other Missouri Synod Lutherans are of the opinion that the white on the Rocky's isn't snow, but baptismal certificates thrown out the train window by Lutherans heading to the Pacific Northwest - where I live.
As my pastor has been living in the Spokane area of Washington state for a number of years now, the conservatism he had been raised with has diminished. He even told me that when he went back home to visit with his now late mother, and she had told him that they had to vote for the Christian Republicans, he responded with, just because someone wears their Christianity on their sleeve doesn't mean that they're true believers. In fact, he has had good things to say about our current president, and views the religious right with dislike and suspicion. He had also told me that the lack of religiosity here in the Northwest is refreshing in that back home in Iowa, people went to church because they felt that they had to, whereas here, people go to church because they want to. I think the old adage would apply to my pastor: you can't go home again.
I have suspicions that my brand of Missouri Synod Lutheranism wouldn't exactly be acceptable by my Midwestern brethren.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
^^^this
I confess I wasn't born around here, actually being born in Chicago but moving three years later to France and living mostly there until eight, when I moved to a Chicago suburb, but I've been either here or in Galena, the tourist trap in northwest Illinois that operates like a carbon copy of Iowa, for what will have been a decade come this summer, or my whole life since puberty. Thus, I have some familiarity, but still an outsider's perspective (believe me, if you're not born here or don't have local family, that may be the only one you can have). It's true that the Christian spirit, the positive spirituality of the religion, can thrive in someone like your pastor, and I don't mean to slander the religion as an ideology. I think, as you suggest, that even religious institutions work best when our natural voluntary tendency to seek some comfort and validation in our time on Earth is the factor that motivates us to join, rather than the fear of offending some fire-and-brimstone punisher based on whatever eschatology is contained in a given scripture. |
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donnie_darko
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Age: 23
Posts: 1794
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| androbot2084 wrote: | | Conservatives lack empathy. |
I disagree, they just only have empathy for certain people and situations. They're not universalists, they believe hate can be a good thing. |
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BraveMurderDay
Snowy Owl
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Joined: Jun 27, 2004
Age: 28
Posts: 166
Location: St. Paul
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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The 2 links in the OP are pretty fringe views that I don't think more than a small minority of people would give credence to.
Religion can run the gamut from constructive compassion to fear and intolerance. If we can take the religion out of it and just look at conservativism today, despite the differences within of religion and others, generally lower taxes and holding lines or trimming domestic government programs relative to the situation seem to be common denominators. The thing that's troubling from an autistic's perspective is it seems like the majority of them do not think an individual is disabled or mentally ill unless they see indicators they can empirically observe and judge to fit as such. It's a method of thinking, one that can be blind to reality. Some here would certainly find the term "invisible disability" apt in describing what they have.
Everyone's different, so that's not to say there aren't people on the spectrum who can get along fine and function well being conservatives. And certainly not to say there aren't leftists and others who don't care or have dangerous ways of thinking regarding the disabled.
I myself have become apolitical and pay a bare minimum of attention to what's going on after I've realized politics involves these power games that are so far removed from what I can firsthand relate to. It wouldn't be my place to tell anyone what to think. If you're politically involved with some noble intent, consideration to your self interest balanced with the interests of others could be a goal. Now if you are someone on the spectrum and know others or know of others on the spectrum, either in real life or from these boards and lean conservative it would be interesting to know
Your take on what government does for the disabled
What government should or should not be doing for the disabled
Ways non-government resources may be used to improve their quality of life?
Do you think your views ever conflict with your self-interest or others' on the spectrum?
I am sorry if my use of the word disabled isn't the best choice there. I know, it isn't always a black and white issue. |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26052
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| donnie_darko wrote: | | They're not universalists, they believe hate can be a good thing. |
If you were a Briton living in London in 1940, would hating Hitler be a bad thing? |
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Farsight
Blue Jay
Joined: Dec 16, 2011
Age: 20
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: Clarification |
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| georgewilson wrote: |
It's true that the Christian spirit, the positive spirituality of the religion, can thrive in someone like your pastor, and I don't mean to slander the religion as an ideology. I think, as you suggest, that even religious institutions work best when our natural voluntary tendency to seek some comfort and validation in our time on Earth is the factor that motivates us to join, rather than the fear of offending some fire-and-brimstone punisher based on whatever eschatology is contained in a given scripture. |
Fully agree. |
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Fnord
Enigmatic Threadkilling Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 17898
Location: Stendec
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:53 pm Post subject: Re: How can Aspies be conservative except under duress? |
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| georgewilson wrote: | | How can Aspies be conservative except under duress? |
The same way that Enties can. Generally speaking...
A Conservative is a person that has just been mugged.
A Liberal is a person that has just been arrested.
... This may not be valid for everyone, everywhere, and all of the time, but it is the way to bet. |
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jackmt
Raven
Joined: Dec 14, 2011
Posts: 111
Location: Missoula, MT
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:50 am Post subject: Re: How can Aspies be conservative except under duress? |
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This is not the evangelical slant, it is the ranting of some evangelical idiot who sees demons in every shadow. I have met a few. They are to be avoided. They do not represent mainsteam Christianity, and they do not provide an excuse for you before God.
I am Christian, evangelical, conservative, and an Aspie. I know several Aspies who hold similar values. Please stop the stereotyping of Aspies you would rail against in another forum. We are all different. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29328
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:06 am Post subject: Re: How can Aspies be conservative except under duress? |
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| jackmt wrote: |
I am Christian, evangelical, conservative, and an Aspie. I know several Aspies who hold similar values. Please stop the stereotyping of Aspies you would rail against in another forum. We are all different. |
"Conservatism" has more to do with limiting the extent and scope of government than with Coming to Jesus. Almost by definition "conservatism" encourages self reliance and prudence. This has no necessary connection to religion. Almost the opposite. Prudence says one must guard himself by good judgement and reason. The Christian faith encourages dependence on a spook invisible Imaginary Friend.
ruveyn |
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Peter_L
Blue Jay
Joined: Jan 06, 2012
Age: 28
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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How can Aspies be conservative except under duress? I suggest the answer is life experience. I'm conservative by UK standards. US politics at both ends of the spectrum seems weird from my perspective. The extreme left people are just as scary to me as the ones on the extreme right. Extremists are just pretty bad generally, I think.
I started off liberal as the schooling system is full of extreme far left teachers who teach their political inclination to the children under their care. I learned a lot about my rights, and nothing about my responsibilities. At school, I was taught an overly ideological idea of what the teachers wanted the world to look like. I soon noticed that what certain teachers with political agendas were teaching us was very naive, and in many cases their opinions actually lacked any basis in reality and they became dismissive (oh, you couldn't understand that at your age...) and then hostile when questioned about holes in their logic that you could slip planetoids (and maybe the odd star) through. They allowed bullies to flourish, and if they were aware of injustice they would sit back, cluck and say "oh, somebody should do something about that". I learned to keep my head down, and accept being bullied. Nobody would do anything about it.
I then joined the ATC at 13, which being sponsored by the military is inherently conservative in it's own way, as the people involved as instructors tend to be servicepeople who have considerably more life experience than school teachers. Frankly, this was a turning point in my life. Responsible adults abounded, and they were far from the smug, patronising teachers i'd been used to. Ask for help, and you'd receive more than you could ever use. I learned about my responsibilities, and so did my cadet peers. Bullying was not tolerated within or outside of cadets, and was ruthlessly exterminated at every level. Woe betide the gang who assumed they could get away with picking on that little strange kid outside cadets. Suddenly they find they'd picked the worst target in school. Free of bullying, I developed quite a lot better than I would have done otherwise.
As a young child I had always looked up at the sky, dreaming one day I would be able to fly. At 14, long before i'd considered getting in a car, I had learned the theoretical requirements to pilot an aircraft, and on a dark rainy day I found myself soaring through the clouds into the brilliant sunlight above in a RAF light aircraft under flying instruction. I learned how to fly powered aircraft and unpowered gliders before I was out of school, and long before I could drive. I learned shooting, archery, self defense skills, pride in my achievements, the confidence to try, and to walk with my head held high, and so much more. If I was good enough to be respected by RAF officers, I was good enough to be respected by kids at school. And by me.
When the bullies picked on a poor kid with his arm in a sling at school, I knew it wasn't somebody elses responsibility to end it. It was mine. It was me who refused to hide his head and scurry past the bullies shoving and thumping him. It was me who demanded that they leave the kid alone in front of hundreds of other shocked kids, because standing up to bullies just wasn't done. It was because of me that there was a pitched battle fought against them, and it was because of me that the majority of the bullies were expelled since I had a couple of hundred witnesses backing my story up.
So, let me turn the question around. How could any Aspie be a liberal, except under duress? Liberal, from my point of view is walking past a problem like a gang of bullies beating someone and clucking "oh, goodness someone should do something about that". But not you. It's not your responsibility after all. Conservative is the radical, outdated and widely mocked concept of standing up and saying "I should do something about that".
In case you missed the point behind the story, I quite strongly dislike the suggestion that i'm evil just because i'm Conservative. Contrary to popular (but lying, and hate filled) left wing propaganda saying that all conservatives enjoy watching people suffer, and spend their spare time eating infants I am actually generally the first person to stop and help in an emergency, and being a first aider this means that today there are at least a couple of people walking around as a result of my actions who would otherwise not be doing so.
Just because someone does not agree with your political views does not mean they are evil. I'm also an atheist btw, so it's nothing to do with religion either. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29328
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter_L wrote: | How can Aspies be conservative except under duress? I suggest the answer is life experience. I'm conservative by UK standards. US politics at both ends of the spectrum seems weird from my perspective. The extreme left people are just as scary to me as the ones on the extreme right. Extremists are just pretty bad generally, I think.
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There is a solid U.S. middle, exemplified by the Independent Voters. They get short shrift from our Masters In Washington. There are many non- crazy Americans who are willing to invest in human capital provide the investors are honest and competent, which our politicians definitely are NOT. Any government that can put a creature like Barney Frank in an oversight position with regard to the banks cannot be relied on to do anything right.
The folks in the middle are good and decent. The politicians and the Corporate Cronies are an Abomination.
ruveyn
ruveyn |
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