1000Knives
It's not difficult if you know how.
Joined: Jul 09, 2011
Age: 22
Posts: 4557
Location: CT, USA
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 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Well, what I meant was, Bruce Lee with his JKD, as being the answer to not as practical actual martial arts. JKD seems like a prototype of sorts of MMA.
Personally, if I were to do a martial art, I'm looking at Tai Chi. What tai-chi masters can do is simply astounding to me. That, and the random tai chi master dude in Shenmue II who taught Ryo a new move was really cool, lol. Right now I figure skate, which you might think isn't very martial arty, but the way you train for it is surprisingly like a martial art. All the moves in the field type stuff, it's like a kata, and you gotta be pretty exact in the way you do them, there's not really room for sloppiness in figure skating. That, and the strength you gain is astounding. My first time on a squat rack I was doing my bodyweight (with a manta ray, though) with no issue, and in couple weeks got up to 365 for reps (again with a manta ray, so kinda cheating), and I could deadlift 265 my first time ever. The lower body gets developed well. Plus, some of the girls, I've seen them just screwing around, doing head kicks for warmup on the bleachers. There's likely 110 pound girls there that could beat my ass if they so chose to. Sounds a bit silly, but yes. Bruce Lee, I've read was actually a champion ballroom dancer before he started martial arts, so I'll stick with my skating for now, and wait on my dreams of becoming Kenshiro or Baki the Grappler.
Well, judo does in fact mean gentle way, yes. Maybe it's just gentler than like...ninjitsu or something, I don't know. I think maybe it's because a lot of martial arts from before were meant for flatout killing your opponent. But, at least when I did judo, we'd do full contact sparring with no pads at all. Maybe getting back into judo would be cool, but honestly I only remember how to fall, and like 2 sweep throws. It was fun, though, and my teachers, even though it was just a YMCA program, I think looking back were reasonably knowledgeable. We even got to crosstrain in sumo wrestling for a couple days, fun.
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kx250rider
Educated Musclehead
Joined: May 16, 2010
Posts: 1953
Location: Dallas, TX and Ventura County, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:50 am Post subject: |
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I don't follow it, and honestly, I think it's all theatrics and very little true fighting. I don't have anything against it if it's something that interests someone, but I won't get into it. Several of my fellow bodybuilder friends are into it, and they can't figure out why I'm not.
Charles |
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ValentineWiggin
Yup.
Joined: May 16, 2011
Posts: 4879
Location: Beneath my cat's paw
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| AceOfSpades wrote: | | Don't take the fact that I check my social commentaries at the door for me being ignorant. |
I never called you ignorant- merely pointed out the absurdity in attacking someone for explaining why they don't like something.
I don't particularly care if you think "social commentary" is relevant here- it has very much to do with why I dislike the subject, hence why I shared it.
| AceOfSpades wrote: | | I just thought you were arrogant about it, especially when you made professional fighters out to be on the same level as people who fight on Jerry Springer as if fighting takes absolutely no finesse at all. |
To me, they are one and the same, this thread being started in solicitation of opinions. (Please refer back to italicized bit for future reference.)
Anyway. I'm sorry the thread was derailed.
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AceOfSpades
Deeds not words
Joined: Feb 12, 2006
Posts: 3647
Location: Sean Penn, Cambodia
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ValentineWiggin wrote: | | AceOfSpades wrote: | | Don't take the fact that I check my social commentaries at the door for me being ignorant. |
I never called you ignorant- merely pointed out the absurdity in attacking someone for explaining why they don't like something.
I don't particularly care if you think "social commentary" is relevant here- it has very much to do with why I dislike the subject, hence why I shared it. |
Fair nuff.
| ValentineWiggin wrote: | | AceOfSpades wrote: | | I just thought you were arrogant about it, especially when you made professional fighters out to be on the same level as people who fight on Jerry Springer as if fighting takes absolutely no finesse at all. |
To me, they are one and the same, this thread being started in solicitation of opinions. (Please refer back to italicized bit for future reference.)
Anyway. I'm sorry the thread was derailed. |
Obviously not a very informed opinion since it's like saying a pee wee league can give the NBA a run for its money but w/e I'm done arguing. I apologize for making such a big deal out of it. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't mean to come across as condescending.
@ Pondering: Damn, the video got taken down. Yeah it is a goddamn shame that just about anyone can run a dojo. All it takes to be certified is taking a couple seminars. |
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CaptainTrips222
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 31, 2009
Age: 31
Posts: 3019
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| AceOfSpades wrote: |
@ Pondering: Damn, the video got taken down. Yeah it is a goddamn shame that just about anyone can run a dojo. All it takes to be certified is taking a couple seminars. |
You know what else sucks? They can charge a FORTUNE for training. Then an additional charge it you want to attend sparing nights. You could end up spending 1200 in one year for mediocre instruction, and no fight practice. |
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abacacus
Rock 'N Roll Outlaw
Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Age: 21
Posts: 3315
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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I've thought about doing MMA a few times. I enjoy the odd scrap and I think it could help control some of my anger issues, but alas my parents don't approve >.>
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Icyclan
Sea Gull
Joined: Jun 20, 2011
Posts: 206
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:15 am Post subject: |
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It irks me that it got so popular, now it's not 'my thing' anymore. Ten years ago you could ask a 100 people under 25 what MMA is, and maybe one would know. Now almost everybody knows.
I have to admit that the peaceniks do have a point when they say it's a violent sport that may promote violence as well. During the years I've met lots of different people who joined up for lots of different reasons, and I have to say that I haven't seen that many people who became less violent due to training. It seems MMA attracts mostly people who already have a propensity for violence. People looking for self-defence usually gravitate towards the traditional martial arts. Too bad for them those are mostly useless for that end. Outside of MMA there are very few options for people looking for legit self-defence. To the person who said that MMA stand up looks sloppy: it may look that way, but under MMA rules the fight dynamics are completely different from boxing or kickboxing, so the fighters have to adjust their technique. Many of the high-level contestants in the UFC are decorated practitioners of various stand up arts. As somebody already pointed out, Alistair Overeem is one of the world's best kickboxers, and even his stand up may look sloppy under MMA rules to people who are not familiar with it.
I like watching the fights, but all the showmanship, the fake grudges and all the other frills don't appeal to me. It's just too 'American' for me I suppose. I'd like to add that nobody has to feel sorry for the fighters, every one you see in the cage/ring is a willing contestant and a highly trained athlete who makes good money doing what he loves.
And yes, that spinning back kick on Etim's head was amazing. Could be the best knock out I've ever seen. |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14831
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Lets break this out into two definitions:
MMA - learning multiple systems.
'MMA' - the current pop trend of full-contact cage fighting and training for it.
'MMA' is great for health, is great if you're the type of person who wants to pursue this as a sport and competition. If you really want strong prowess in non-ring combat; sure you won't do terrible but, you'll only be so effective.
MMA - if its good systems being blended under strong instruction its significantly stronger for self-defense than 'MMA' and additionally it doesn't require as much conditioning; don't get me wrong, conditioning is still good, but its optional. What happens with this form, MMA, is that fights will typically last less than four or five seconds. Your past their guard within two-seconds and at that point deciding whether they'll be alive when they hit the ground and, if so, whether you simply wish to subdue them, whether you need to disable/break, especially true if you're dealing with multiple attackers. This form: quick, ugly, to-the-point.
If you pit an MMA fighter against an 'MMA' fighter, if all things are equal and under the MMA figher's rules (essentially no rules), the MMA figher will have the best chances. Under the 'MMA' fighters rules (ie. ring and safety-oriented with many targets and types of contact ruled out) the 'MMA' fighter will have a significant advantage.
So, its different strokes for different folks really. An MMA fighter might dislike 'MMA' because they feel they're learning comparably watered down self-defense. An 'MMA' fighter may not agree with that because they'd perhaps cite that we live in a world where you can just buy a gun anyway and, if they can't show off in the right or get ripped from the training - there's no point. |
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snapcap
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 13, 2011
Age: 31
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | Lets break this out into two definitions:
MMA - learning multiple systems.
'MMA' - the current pop trend of full-contact cage fighting and training for it.
'MMA' is great for health, is great if you're the type of person who wants to pursue this as a sport and competition. If you really want strong prowess in non-ring combat; sure you won't do terrible but, you'll only be so effective.
MMA - if its good systems being blended under strong instruction its significantly stronger for self-defense than 'MMA' and additionally it doesn't require as much conditioning; don't get me wrong, conditioning is still good, but its optional. What happens with this form, MMA, is that fights will typically last less than four or five seconds. Your past their guard within two-seconds and at that point deciding whether they'll be alive when they hit the ground and, if so, whether you simply wish to subdue them, whether you need to disable/break, especially true if you're dealing with multiple attackers. This form: quick, ugly, to-the-point.
If you pit an MMA fighter against an 'MMA' fighter, if all things are equal and under the MMA figher's rules (essentially no rules), the MMA figher will have the best chances. Under the 'MMA' fighters rules (ie. ring and safety-oriented with many targets and types of contact ruled out) the 'MMA' fighter will have a significant advantage.
So, its different strokes for different folks really. An MMA fighter might dislike 'MMA' because they feel they're learning comparably watered down self-defense. An 'MMA' fighter may not agree with that because they'd perhaps cite that we live in a world where you can just buy a gun anyway and, if they can't show off in the right or get ripped from the training - there's no point. |
An MMA fighter trains in different modes of fighting, but will go for the balls every time?
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| snapcap wrote: | | An MMA fighter trains in different modes of fighting, but will go for the balls every time? |
Tell me the last time you watched a cage fight where the 'MMA' fighter was alowed to go straight for breaking hands, elbows, knees, or hitting pressure points such as vulnerable nerves, arteries, or weakpoints in bone connection. The problem - it can't be done like that legally and people would die on a regular basis, let alone that careers wouldn't last past a couple fights before bones were broken or internal organs ruptured.
Having testicles yanked a good foot or so away from the body would be inconvenient for fertility but, I can think of a least a couple dozen spots that are easily as bad and a handful that are commonly known to be lethal, especially if its a supported strike. |
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snapcap
Phoenix
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Age: 31
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: |
Having testicles yanked a good foot or so away from the body would be inconvenient for fertility but, I can think of a least a couple dozen spots that are easily as bad and a handful that are commonly known to be lethal, especially if its a supported strike. |
I don't think it's as easy as you put it, I can't remember the last time I've heard of someone just walking up to someone and pulling them apart like that, unless you count Blood Sport and Mortal Kombat.
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Last edited by snapcap on Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Icyclan
Sea Gull
Joined: Jun 20, 2011
Posts: 206
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | snapcap wrote: | | An MMA fighter trains in different modes of fighting, but will go for the balls every time? |
Tell me the last time you watched a cage fight where the 'MMA' fighter was alowed to go straight for breaking hands, elbows, knees, or hitting pressure points such as vulnerable nerves, arteries, or weakpoints in bone connection. The problem - it can't be done like that legally and people would die on a regular basis, let alone that careers wouldn't last past a couple fights before bones were broken or internal organs ruptured.
Having testicles yanked a good foot or so away from the body would be inconvenient for fertility but, I can think of a least a couple dozen spots that are easily as bad and a handful that are commonly known to be lethal, especially if its a supported strike. |
True no holds barred tournaments are held in Brazil frequently, and people don't die. Attacking the groin is perfectly legal, but only results in getting hit in the face or triangled if you don't establish a superior position first. Dirty tricks do not decide the outcome of a fight, superior positiong (both standing and on the ground) does. If there were so many deadly points in the human body, football players and other contact heavy sport practitioners would die all the time. I've heard of livers taking damage, but never of internal organs being ruptured, that sounds like pure science fiction. Has there ever been a documented case of this?
The fighters don't think: "I'd better not hit him here, this is where pressure point 34B is located, I might kill him." They beat each other silly not caring where the punches land and no one has ever died in sanctioned competition. There have been a couple of cracked ribs here and there in the tournaments I have on tape (which didn't stop the fighters), but few bones have ever been broken save for the accidental arm bar gone wrong. I've never heard of knees being broken, except when blown out by a heel hook.
The 'deadly' arts had their chance to prove themselves during the first UFCs where everything was legal and where biting or eye gouging only resulted in a fine. The 'too deadly for competition' arts failed miserably against sport oriented styles and they still do, under MMA rules, under Vale Tudo rules, and under no rules. |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14831
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| snapcap wrote: | | techstepgenr8tion wrote: |
Having testicles yanked a good foot or so away from the body would be inconvenient for fertility but, I can think of a least a couple dozen spots that are easily as bad and a handful that are commonly known to be lethal, especially if its a supported strike. |
I don't think it's as easy as you put it, I can't remember the last time I've heard of something people just walking up to someone and pulling them apart like that, unless you count Blood Sport and Mortal Kombat. |
Heh. I didn't say anything about ripping arms off. Now.....breathing liquid nitrogen on them and shattering em with a punch to the chest -that's *my* usual. 
Don't get confused, I really gave that reply for other people's info since I didn't really clarify 'what' was different earlier. From the commentary about going for the balls I knew you weren't making a serious inquiry. |
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snapcap
Phoenix
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Age: 31
Posts: 2328
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | snapcap wrote: | | techstepgenr8tion wrote: |
Having testicles yanked a good foot or so away from the body would be inconvenient for fertility but, I can think of a least a couple dozen spots that are easily as bad and a handful that are commonly known to be lethal, especially if its a supported strike. |
I don't think it's as easy as you put it, I can't remember the last time I've heard of something people just walking up to someone and pulling them apart like that, unless you count Blood Sport and Mortal Kombat. |
Heh. I didn't say anything about ripping arms off. Now.....breathing liquid nitrogen on them and shattering em with a punch to the chest -that's *my* usual.
Don't get confused, I really gave that reply for other people's info since I didn't really clarify 'what' was different earlier. From the commentary about going for the balls I knew you weren't making a serious inquiry. |
I don't see the difference you see in MMA fighters that use rules and those that don't. I'm pretty sure an MMA fighter wouldn't have any kind of disadvantage to an MMA fighter that didn't have rules. MMA with rules is what is sought after by the best fighters, fighters that don't have rules won't make it. MMA fighters can use dirty maneuvers, and I'm willing to bet they are faster and stronger at them.
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14831
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Icyclan wrote: | | True no holds barred tournaments are held in Brazil frequently, and people don't die. |
Common sense dictates that they're also not out to kill each other - its a tournament, not a stickup. I hate to say it but the 'no holds barred' tournament thing in all just sounds gimmicky and in any real sense impossible. As far as the closest thing I can think of to a controlled level of the stuff I'm talking about, Filipino Panantukan, that was outlawed.
| Icyclan wrote: | | Attacking the groin is perfectly legal, but only results in getting hit in the face or triangled if you don't establish a superior position first. |
Clearly its not a wise entry; there's nothing dictating that its either done on entry or not at all.
| Icyclan wrote: | | Dirty tricks do not decide the outcome of a fight, superior positiong (both standing and on the ground) does. |
Agreed. However, when you have a more limited set of positioning, more limited set of tools (ie. in how you can use knees, elbows, etc.), the whole way you will approach a physical conflict will be inherently different.
| Icyclan wrote: | | If there were so many deadly points in the human body, football players and other contact heavy sport practitioners would die all the time. |
For starters harness tackles are frowned upon because they're potentially pulling the person down in a vulnerable position and to risk slamming the back of your head or damaging your neck is a big problem. That said there's a reason why in contact sports like that there are rules. I get the overwhelming impression that if a football player grabbed another football players helmet with both hands, turned it sideways, and yanked down and backward that they'd be going to jail.
| Icyclan wrote: | | I've heard of livers taking damage, but never of internal organs being ruptured, that sounds like pure science fiction. Has there ever been a documented case of this? |
Damage would be more likely but ruptures could happen, all depending on whether people are meaning to do damage. Ruptures wouldn't be the most likely thing to have happen but the right things from the right angles from someone who knows how to send hard enough - it could.
| Icyclan wrote: | | The fighters don't think: "I'd better not hit him here, this is where pressure point 34B is located, I might kill him." |
If you have to think at all you're toast. That's why anyone, traditional martial artists or 'MMA' train. Also, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I'm talking fatal nerve or vein strikes in the bottom of the foot or some kind of Kill Bill type of thing - I'm not suggesting anything in strange spots, just the standards. If you can land some nasty blows on someone, destabilize them, and keep them with no idea where they are or what'll be hitting them next - they're at your mercy in the fullest sense (and I by that I mean after entry when you've fogged them up with a few good hits already).
| Icyclan wrote: | | They beat each other silly not caring where the punches land and no one has ever died in sanctioned competition. |
And its wise for tournaments to keep to punches - things stay safer that way.
| Icyclan wrote: | | There have been a couple of cracked ribs here and there in the tournaments I have on tape (which didn't stop the fighters), but few bones have ever been broken save for the accidental arm bar gone wrong. I've never heard of knees being broken, except when blown out by a heel hook. |
I'd figure if someone did break another person's knee their career would be over. Its not that its particularly difficult, just that its hard to call it an accident.
| Icyclan wrote: | | The 'deadly' arts had their chance to prove themselves during the first UFCs where everything was legal and where biting or eye gouging only resulted in a fine. The 'too deadly for competition' arts failed miserably against sport oriented styles and they still do, under MMA rules, under Vale Tudo rules, and under no rules. |
I'm really trying to walk a fine line between clearing things up and explaining things I probably shouldn't (thats not to say that I think I'm some kind of badass deadly artist - I don't, but I would contest that I'm learning some arts that have signficant merits in this area).
The problem with the UFC example: These were still fought on canvas, not cement. I also really can't imagine being able to do *anything* with someone. For instance I can't figure a fighter going into the ring, getting past another guy's guard, punching him square in the throat, and just getting a slap on the wrist for killing him? The argument I'm trying to make is that there are certain things you do to a human being who you just tapped fists with who's on TV with you for competition and money, there are certain things you do to someone who's trying to rob you or who you know means to take your life if you don't take theirs. One group as I mentioned, 'MMA', trains for the first, another, multiple martial arts, is training for the other. If a person wants to do things for sport where injury is kept to about the level of boxing and where they can test and show that skill - cage fighting is perfect. For a person who wants a strong edge up IRL in situations where defending themselves or loved ones is needed and where they may not necessarily have a gun available (even on time or at a safe distance for that matter) - multi-disciplinary martial arts is probably a better idea.
On reviewing my first post I wanted to comment - I probably should have watched how I phrased things in my first post. I wasn't aiming to start a macho-man growlathon over who's tougher or who can do what better; just that there are distinct differences in the approaches. If someone does want to know more about the dirty over the tournament - get some stuff by guys like Dan Inosanto, Felix Valencia, Willem De Thouars, etc.. Obviously you won't find shock-and-awe on Youtube or on DVD. I don't think any legit martial arts teacher wants to throw out all the things that can be done on the internet because, suffice to say, the wrong people will do it and its better to keep the availability of full systems to private training to where an instructor can choose whether they trust a student enough to hopefully *never* use these things but simply be aware that - if they had to defend their families or defend themseves or friends from an attack, especially with multiple people - perhaps better armed, what kinds of things are available if push really comes to shove.
Last edited by techstepgenr8tion on Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:01 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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