ProfessorP
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 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:08 pm Post subject: Politics of Jesus |
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My reading of the Bible is that Jesus was not interested in politics or even a fair division of wealth. When someone asked Jesus to tell his brother to divide an inheritance fairly, He replied that this wasn't His business. He did not have a political message other than telling people to obey the law.
His message was spiritual, calling for repentance, loving your neighbor (including your enemies), showing humility, and not loving the world. Heartless rich people were criticized, not because they were rich, but because they were heartless. |
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abacacus
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:02 pm Post subject: Re: Politics of Jesus |
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| ProfessorP wrote: | My reading of the Bible is that Jesus was not interested in politics or even a fair division of wealth. When someone asked Jesus to tell his brother to divide an inheritance fairly, He replied that this wasn't His business. He did not have a political message other than telling people to obey the law.
His message was spiritual, calling for repentance, loving your neighbor (including your enemies), showing humility, and not loving the world. Heartless rich people were criticized, not because they were rich, but because they were heartless. |
Matthew 19:24
"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
So it would appear he did indeed have a message to do with wealth.... get rid of it. He also told anyone who wanted to follow him to give up everything they owned.
Funnily enough he also told people that they still had to obey the Old Testament laws that demanded violence... something Christians refuse to admit.
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ProfessorP
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Politics of Jesus |
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| abacacus wrote: | | ProfessorP wrote: | My reading of the Bible is that Jesus was not interested in politics or even a fair division of wealth. When someone asked Jesus to tell his brother to divide an inheritance fairly, He replied that this wasn't His business. He did not have a political message other than telling people to obey the law.
His message was spiritual, calling for repentance, loving your neighbor (including your enemies), showing humility, and not loving the world. Heartless rich people were criticized, not because they were rich, but because they were heartless. |
Matthew 19:24
"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
So it would appear he did indeed have a message to do with wealth.... get rid of it. He also told anyone who wanted to follow him to give up everything they owned.
Funnily enough he also told people that they still had to obey the Old Testament laws that demanded violence... something Christians refuse to admit. |
Hi Abacus,
Nice to hear from you. I disagree with both of your statements, but I see how someone can make your interpretations.
Giving up the love of mammon is probably harder for a rich person than for a poor person. I think that is why it is so hard for a rich person to enter the Kingdom. I only know of the rich young ruler being told to give up all of his wealth. There could have been many reasons for that, and I suspect that emotional attachment to wealth was one reason.
You are correct that Jesus came to fulfill the laws and prophecies of the Old Testament. Nonetheless, there is no instance in which He participated in or called others to participate in violence. (Except possibly the "swords" as in Luke. I think other interpretations are better there as well.) Jesus came to instill the spirt of Old Testament laws, but I think not the violence. Not stoning the adultress is an example.
My own theology is closest to Mennonite (although there are no Mennonite churches in my county so I attend a non-denominational church). I take the view, however, that different people legitimately make different interpretations of scripture. Our job as fellow-Christians
is not to try to correct them since we may be wrong ourselves. Our job is to love them. Love and humility are much more important than minor theological differences. |
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Kraichgauer
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: Politics of Jesus |
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| ProfessorP wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | ProfessorP wrote: | My reading of the Bible is that Jesus was not interested in politics or even a fair division of wealth. When someone asked Jesus to tell his brother to divide an inheritance fairly, He replied that this wasn't His business. He did not have a political message other than telling people to obey the law.
His message was spiritual, calling for repentance, loving your neighbor (including your enemies), showing humility, and not loving the world. Heartless rich people were criticized, not because they were rich, but because they were heartless. |
Matthew 19:24
"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
So it would appear he did indeed have a message to do with wealth.... get rid of it. He also told anyone who wanted to follow him to give up everything they owned.
Funnily enough he also told people that they still had to obey the Old Testament laws that demanded violence... something Christians refuse to admit. |
Hi Abacus,
Nice to hear from you. I disagree with both of your statements, but I see how someone can make your interpretations.
Giving up the love of mammon is probably harder for a rich person than for a poor person. I think that is why it is so hard for a rich person to enter the Kingdom. I only know of the rich young ruler being told to give up all of his wealth. There could have been many reasons for that, and I suspect that emotional attachment to wealth was one reason.
You are correct that Jesus came to fulfill the laws and prophecies of the Old Testament. Nonetheless, there is no instance in which He participated in or called others to participate in violence. (Except possibly the "swords" as in Luke. I think other interpretations are better there as well.) Jesus came to instill the spirt of Old Testament laws, but I think not the violence. Not stoning the adultress is an example.
My own theology is closest to Mennonite (although there are no Mennonite churches in my county so I attend a non-denominational church). I take the view, however, that different people legitimately make different interpretations of scripture. Our job as fellow-Christians
is not to try to correct them since we may be wrong ourselves. Our job is to love them. Love and humility are much more important than minor theological differences. |
On top of that, Jesus had also said that the people had added to God's law out of the hardness of their hearts. I presume that would be where the violence, and just plainly absurd rules, had come in to play.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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abacacus
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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The thing is that once you start interpreting instead of taking it literally, you are no longer a christian.
You are no longer following the bible, you are following what your own mind tells you to do and you use a book to rationalise it.
By the way, that verse with some more background to it:
21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Note that it says "a" rich man, unless my grammar is way off that would mean that ANY rich man could never enter heaven, because he is rich and has not given all he could to the poor.
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We'll not rest until the purge is complete
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ProfessorP
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:55 pm Post subject: literal interpretation |
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| abacacus wrote: | The thing is that once you start interpreting instead of taking it literally, you are no longer a christian.
You are no longer following the bible, you are following what your own mind tells you to do and you use a book to rationalise it.
By the way, that verse with some more background to it:
21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Note that it says "a" rich man, unless my grammar is way off that would mean that ANY rich man could never enter heaven, because he is rich and has not given all he could to the poor. |
Even literal interpretation is a form of interpretation. I am not convinced, however, that literal interpretation of all verses is necessary for one to be a Christian. I believe that some sayings of Jesus are intended as metaphors. (Mt 5:29 "If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away" for example). Nonetheless, I tend much more than most people to make literal interpretations (probably that is part of my Aspergers).
I do not see any part of our discussions in which I failed to make a literal interpretation. He did not say that a rich person cannot enter the Kingdom. The verses on the rich man entering the Kingdom continue with Mt 19:26..."With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." |
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androbot2084
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| I think it is time to stop arguing with people that cannot be convinced and now is the time to take action. The new city of Jerusalem which is located in New York should not be allowed to remain a marketplace. The tables of the moneychangers need to be overturned because they are all thieves. |
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abacacus
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: literal interpretation |
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| ProfessorP wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | The thing is that once you start interpreting instead of taking it literally, you are no longer a christian.
You are no longer following the bible, you are following what your own mind tells you to do and you use a book to rationalise it.
By the way, that verse with some more background to it:
21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Note that it says "a" rich man, unless my grammar is way off that would mean that ANY rich man could never enter heaven, because he is rich and has not given all he could to the poor. |
Even literal interpretation is a form of interpretation. I am not convinced, however, that literal interpretation of all verses is necessary for one to be a Christian. I believe that some sayings of Jesus are intended as metaphors. (Mt 5:29 "If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away" for example). Nonetheless, I tend much more than most people to make literal interpretations (probably that is part of my Aspergers).
I do not see any part of our discussions in which I failed to make a literal interpretation. He did not say that a rich person cannot enter the Kingdom. The verses on the rich man entering the Kingdom continue with Mt 19:26..."With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." |
I don't see why, gouging out eyes is perfectly in line with what god told people to do in the Old Testament.
If you start reading in to the bible and projecting your own values on it (interpreting) instead of taking it literally, you are no longer following a religion, you are creating your own. You are not following the "word of god", you are following what you think he meant to say.
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We'll not rest until the purge is complete
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ProfessorP
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:08 pm Post subject: interpretation |
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Abacus wrote "
I don't see why, gouging out eyes is perfectly in line with what god told people to do in the Old Testament.
If you start reading in to the bible and projecting your own values on it (interpreting) instead of taking it literally, you are no longer following a religion, you are creating your own. You are not following the "word of god", you are following what you think he meant to say."
First, I am glad to read your thoughtful responses. I hope that my arguments are not seen as something confrontational or trying to put myself above you, but that the arguments are just used as tools for us to discover the truth. If we are not doing that, then I am failing.
The gouging of eyes could possibly be literal, but the applications would be very limited. A better example of metaphor is: Mt 23:24 "...You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel". I do not think that any of the pharisees ever swallowed a camel. Metaphors are good ways of making a point just as are Jesus' parables.
I agree with you that we cannot just make our own interpretations of the Bible to meet our own needs. While we should not try to determine "What He meant to say", we do need to determine "what is He saying". We also need to think of application. I think that the application of the statement on gouging eyes is to get rid of whatever causes you to sin. This can go back to the difficulties of rich men entering the Kingdom, for example. If their wealth causes them to love mammon or to be hard hearted to the poor, then they need to get rid of the wealth. That is an application which is not directly stated, but I believe that this is what Jesus is saying. |
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Kraichgauer
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:12 pm Post subject: Re: interpretation |
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| ProfessorP wrote: | Abacus wrote "
I don't see why, gouging out eyes is perfectly in line with what god told people to do in the Old Testament.
If you start reading in to the bible and projecting your own values on it (interpreting) instead of taking it literally, you are no longer following a religion, you are creating your own. You are not following the "word of god", you are following what you think he meant to say."
First, I am glad to read your thoughtful responses. I hope that my arguments are not seen as something confrontational or trying to put myself above you, but that the arguments are just used as tools for us to discover the truth. If we are not doing that, then I am failing.
The gouging of eyes could possibly be literal, but the applications would be very limited. A better example of metaphor is: Mt 23:24 "...You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel". I do not think that any of the pharisees ever swallowed a camel. Metaphors are good ways of making a point just as are Jesus' parables.
I agree with you that we cannot just make our own interpretations of the Bible to meet our own needs. While we should not try to determine "What He meant to say", we do need to determine "what is He saying". We also need to think of application. I think that the application of the statement on gouging eyes is to get rid of whatever causes you to sin. This can go back to the difficulties of rich men entering the Kingdom, for example. If their wealth causes them to love mammon or to be hard hearted to the poor, then they need to get rid of the wealth. That is an application which is not directly stated, but I believe that this is what Jesus is saying. |
I think you're right.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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abacacus
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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What's the difference between "what he meant to say" and "what he is saying" when you start reading beyond the words?
I agree that perhaps not everything can be taken literally (swallowing a camel would be an interesting feat indeed), but when you take something that could be just what it says and nothing more and claim it's a metaphor, what else are you doing what seeing what you want to see?
You aren't coming across as confrontational or "holier then thou' to me, and I apologise if I am. I'm just a bit blunt 
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Kraichgauer
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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In the cultural context, the people of Jesus' time I think understood what was meant to be taken literally, and what wasn't.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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abacacus
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | In the cultural context, the people of Jesus' time I think understood what was meant to be taken literally, and what wasn't.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
And none of them are around any more.
Now, people make their own interpretations, and when that happens it is pretty much impossible for them to be right all the time.
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A shot gun blast into the face of deceit
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We'll not rest until the purge is complete
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Kraichgauer
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| abacacus wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | In the cultural context, the people of Jesus' time I think understood what was meant to be taken literally, and what wasn't.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
And none of them are around any more.
Now, people make their own interpretations, and when that happens it is pretty much impossible for them to be right all the time. |
Biblical scholars - I mean real scholars, associated with more Mainline Denominations where learning is held in high esteem - have come through research to understand the use of language among the ancients. Which is why evangelicals, who seem to think ignorance is a virtue, have such a ridiculous interpretation of the Book of Revelation.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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abacacus
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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I'm mildly amazed you can put so much faith in to a group of people who are STILL only going to see what they want to see, it's human nature.
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