puddingmouse
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Location: Cottonopolis
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 Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not excusing her behaviour. I'm just saying there's more to it than meets the eye. She politely bowed out the last time I had this discussion with her, but I suppose she didn't get the same impression of 'me vs. everyone' during a one on one discussion.
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TeaEarlGreyHot
Your Maya
Joined: Jul 05, 2010
Age: 30
Posts: 28106
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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I have nothing nice to say right now.
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CoMF
Deinonychus
Joined: Feb 08, 2012
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| The thing that always made me question the validity of the whole same sex marriage "debate" is that I have yet to encounter someone who can construct a convincing secular argument against it. |
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VMSmith
a figment of my own imagination
Joined: Apr 18, 2011
Age: 21
Posts: 2709
Location: the old country
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| codarac wrote: | Great, just what this forum needs. Yet another thread about "gay" marriage.
I doubt the support for this absurdity is even as widespread among homosexuals as it seems to be among spergs. |
nup our newspapers are full of it. hard not to be obsessed when the government and conservative religious and other organisations constantly throw it in your face. a healthy obsession i think.
hrm if that girl didn't want people to vote for marriage equality then this ruling by a federal appeals court can't have made her happy:
http://www.smh.com.au/world/court-rules-california-got-it-wrong-on-samesex-marriage-20120208-1rf09.html
CoMF: forget the secular arguments, the religious ones are just plain ridiculous and so predictable- it's always the same bible entries. but how easy is it to argue against them? |
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OliveOilMom
Queen of cans and jars
Joined: Nov 12, 2011
Posts: 6990
Location: Living in Faulkner's nightmare
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| CoMF wrote: | | The thing that always made me question the validity of the whole same sex marriage "debate" is that I have yet to encounter someone who can construct a convincing secular argument against it. |
The only secular argument I could think of against it would be if it was in a society that was just starting out and the population was very small, and it was the norm to only have sex with your spouse. The reasoning behind it would be to increase the population so that the society doesn't die out. However we don't have that problem. In our society, it wouldn't harm or effect anyone negatively, except for bigots who would be upset just knowing it exists.
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I can be a little much sometimes. |
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Vexcalibur
Proud to be smug as heck
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Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Posts: 5384
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| codarac wrote: | | Great, just what this forum needs. Yet another thread about "gay" marriage. |
Would you rather we focused on one of the other 20 recurring topics in PPR? Obama bashing, republican bashing, abortion, feminism. I mean really, argument from "why are we discussing this again?" is such a moot point.
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I doubt the support for this absurdity
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Marriage is an absurdity, yes. But if two adults want to marry each other and other people don't let them, it stops being an absurd matter and it becomes something about discrimination in giving rights. And that's not really an irrelevant topic.
| Quote: |
is even as widespread among homosexuals as it seems to be among spergs. |
Just a strong assertion. It wouldn't matter though. If it were just two homosexuals that wanted to marry and arbitrary laws didn't let them, it would still be an important issue of discrimination.
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TM
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 2122
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| The declaration of independence says "Life, Liberty and pursuit of happiness", for some "pursuit of happiness" involves marrying someone of the same gender, therefore being against "gay" marriage is unamerican. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 13190
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| TM wrote: | | The declaration of independence says "Life, Liberty and pursuit of happiness", for some "pursuit of happiness" involves marrying someone of the same gender, therefore being against "gay" marriage is unamerican. |
Sounds right to me. 
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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TeaEarlGreyHot
Your Maya
Joined: Jul 05, 2010
Age: 30
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Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| TM wrote: | | The declaration of independence says "Life, Liberty and pursuit of happiness", for some "pursuit of happiness" involves marrying someone of the same gender, therefore being against "gay" marriage is unamerican. |
I'd rather this not turn into a debate on what constitutes "American".
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codarac
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 29, 2006
Posts: 805
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | | codarac wrote: | Great, just what this forum needs. Yet another thread about "gay" marriage.
I doubt the support for this absurdity is even as widespread among homosexuals as it seems to be among spergs. |
Gay rights - especially the right for gays to marry - is the new civil rights movement. That's why we "spergs" support it probably as much as gay citizens do. As one of us, you should understand what it's like to be the odd man out; to be regarded as the freak. |
Yes, as a sperg I know what it's like to be regarded as a freak. But A.S. is a defect, and I have come to accept that rather than expect the world to change to suit me. I have certainly never felt the desire to join forces with every other group of freaks, outsiders and self-designated victims in an ongoing revenge offensive against all that is healthy, strong and wholesome. The eagerness to jump on any "oppressed outsider" bandwagon that so many on this board display suggests to me that society would be no worse off if the political influence of people with AS were reduced.
| Kraichgauer wrote: | Except in the case of gay marriage, we're talking about a fundamental right that should be afforded to all Americans, regardless of who they are.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
It's weird how 99% of the people who have ever lived never came to the realisation that homosexuals have this supposed "right" to get married.
Fact is: there are no rights apart from what a society/community decides to bestow upon its members.
Homosexuality is a defect, and a healthy society should discriminate against it on those grounds. |
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puddingmouse
exclamation mark!
Joined: Apr 25, 2010
Age: 26
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Location: Cottonopolis
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| codarac wrote: |
It's weird how 99% of the people who have ever lived never came to the realisation that homosexuals have this supposed "right" to get married.
Fact is: there are no rights apart from what a society/community decides to bestow upon its members.
Homosexuality is a defect, and a healthy society should discriminate against it on those grounds. |
I don't think it's a defect, but let's follow your logic here for a moment. You think homosexuality is a defect because it's not conducive to individual reproduction, right? This argument raises several issues:
1. Many homosexuals in the past have reproduced, anyway, and they continue to do so.
2. Even if your argument is that homosexuality is not destructive of the reproduction per se, but of the family unit, you frankly have no evidence of this.
3. Even if homosexuality has a negative effect on an individual's ability to reproduce, you have no evidence that it lowers the reproductive capacity of the population at large. Most states of India have a fertility rate well above replacement level. In India, 50% of men have their first sexual experience with another man.
4. Some cultures specifically have a role for homosexual or transsexual men and I don't see how these societies are unhealthy or decadent, when they've been that way for thousands of years.
5. Even the northern European culture, which you probably think is historically a 'healthy' one, wasn't homophobic until the adoption of Christianity.
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
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Age: 47
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| codarac wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | codarac wrote: | Great, just what this forum needs. Yet another thread about "gay" marriage.
I doubt the support for this absurdity is even as widespread among homosexuals as it seems to be among spergs. |
Gay rights - especially the right for gays to marry - is the new civil rights movement. That's why we "spergs" support it probably as much as gay citizens do. As one of us, you should understand what it's like to be the odd man out; to be regarded as the freak. |
Yes, as a sperg I know what it's like to be regarded as a freak. But A.S. is a defect, and I have come to accept that rather than expect the world to change to suit me. I have certainly never felt the desire to join forces with every other group of freaks, outsiders and self-designated victims in an ongoing revenge offensive against all that is healthy, strong and wholesome. The eagerness to jump on any "oppressed outsider" bandwagon that so many on this board display suggests to me that society would be no worse off if the political influence of people with AS were reduced.
| Kraichgauer wrote: | Except in the case of gay marriage, we're talking about a fundamental right that should be afforded to all Americans, regardless of who they are.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
It's weird how 99% of the people who have ever lived never came to the realisation that homosexuals have this supposed "right" to get married.
Fact is: there are no rights apart from what a society/community decides to bestow upon its members.
Homosexuality is a defect, and a healthy society should discriminate against it on those grounds. |
So, you think you're defective? Well, if you want to think that of yourself, go ahead. Me, I consider myself as a "sperg" to be of a more diverse minority. Same applies to gays, as far as I'm concerned. After years of trying to hide my "freakishness," I have no more use for self hatred.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
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Age: 47
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| puddingmouse wrote: | | codarac wrote: |
It's weird how 99% of the people who have ever lived never came to the realisation that homosexuals have this supposed "right" to get married.
Fact is: there are no rights apart from what a society/community decides to bestow upon its members.
Homosexuality is a defect, and a healthy society should discriminate against it on those grounds. |
I don't think it's a defect, but let's follow your logic here for a moment. You think homosexuality is a defect because it's not conducive to individual reproduction, right? This argument raises several issues:
1. Many homosexuals in the past have reproduced, anyway, and they continue to do so.
2. Even if your argument is that homosexuality is not destructive of the reproduction per se, but of the family unit, you frankly have no evidence of this.
3. Even if homosexuality has a negative effect on an individual's ability to reproduce, you have no evidence that it lowers the reproductive capacity of the population at large. Most states of India have a fertility rate well above replacement level. In India, 50% of men have their first sexual experience with another man.
4. Some cultures specifically have a role for homosexual or transsexual men and I don't see how these societies are unhealthy or decadent, when they've been that way for thousands of years.
5. Even the northern European culture, which you probably think is historically a 'healthy' one, wasn't homophobic until the adoption of Christianity. |
Please don't think I'm taking codarac's side, but in regard to your 5th point, I'm afraid that in Pre-Christian northern Europe, homophobia was alive and well. Tacitus in his book The Germania, written in the late first century A.D., recounted how homosexuals were punished by being buried alive in bogs. Their remains have been discovered in modern times, preserved in the peat. To be sure, as not every Germanic culture was the same, another tribe called the Heruli may have practiced ritual homosexuality in their manhood rituals, but it's uncertain if any other tribes followed their lead.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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CrazyCatLord
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Joined: Oct 25, 2011
Posts: 2177
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| That point could be made about the pre-Christian Roman culture though. Not only homosexuality was legal in ancient Rome, gay marriage was legal as well. Two Roman emperors married a man. |
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puddingmouse
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: |
Please don't think I'm taking codarac's side, but in regard to your 5th point, I'm afraid that in Pre-Christian northern Europe, homophobia was alive and well. Tacitus in his book The Germania, written in the late first century A.D., recounted how homosexuals were punished by being buried alive in bogs. Their remains have been discovered in modern times, preserved in the peat. To be sure, as not every Germanic culture was the same, another tribe called the Heruli may have practiced ritual homosexuality in their manhood rituals, but it's uncertain if any other tribes followed their lead.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Meanwhile, the Celts were easy-access, especially according to Roman accounts. 
There is other evidence that suggests they had a concept of gender and sexuality that was not the norm post-Christianisation, but nothing is as clear as what the Romans wrote on that matter. 
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