Matt62
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 05, 2012
Age: 51
Posts: 1156
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 Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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I've been somewhat successful in this in the past. A lot of times I can get away with it, unless someone/thing causes a meltdown, or worse, shutdown. Those are rare, but I have had them especially between my teens and mid thirties.
It gets old now, older than I am.
Feels so good to come here & talk about stuff I've never told my friends (NT) about, except in very tiny, compartmentalized bites.
Sincerely,
Matthew |
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kBillingsley
Sea Gull
Joined: Dec 23, 2010
Age: 19
Posts: 224
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Why do so many of you have such an aversion to the synthetic? I, conversely, take much pride in my work. Being false is like a seal of original work. Even in the late Renaissance, artists began to employ more and more fake elements to their paintings so as to make them genuinely their own. |
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NicoleG
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 26, 2011
Age: 36
Posts: 661
Location: Dallas-Fort Worth
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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Random thoughts:
I saw an interview on TV years ago with Tracy Nelson (the actress that played the cool nun in The Father Dowling series in the early '90s), and she quoted her mother as saying, "Always remember to take your makeup off before going to bed."
"Person" comes from "persona," which is an interesting tidbit of information.
I think of "faking it" as meaning that you do not truly enjoy it. It's utilitarian, in that it may make interactions with others smoother, but it's not enjoyable. So, if someone is wearing a persona and they like it, then I don't think of them as faking it. That persona(s) is just as much a part of who they are.
I see some people as always wearing a mask that they forgot they were wearing. I want to tell those people, "Oh, come off it." (@ 2:50) "The realization of the self fundamentally depends on coming off it. You know the sort of...when we say to people who put on some kind of an act and say, 'Oh, come off it,' and some people can come off it. They laugh and they say they suddenly realize, you know, they were making fools of themselves, and they laugh at themselves, and they come off it."
It sometimes feels like I can tell the difference between someone who is wearing a mask they like, and therefore is a part of them, a natural extension if you will, and someone who is wearing a mask they don't like. This could just be in my imagination, though, but sometimes it really does feel like I can tell the difference. If nothing else, I know I enjoy being around people that don't appear fake to me more than being around people that do appear fake. However, I distinguish "being fake" from "wearing a mask or a persona," as these two things mean something different in my mind. I enjoy the presence of people that are comfortable branching out, who truly likes what they are doing and why they are doing it.
I know a lady who was once a man, and she went through all of the therapies and surgeries and became a legal female, and is now married to a man, and they love each other dearly. She still has to put on a certain amount of act to cover up any residual "he" attributes about her, like she gets horribly embarrassed to cough, because it is definitely a man's sounding cough. I know that she takes great offense if anyone ever suggests or tries to ask about her history. As far as she is concerned, she is a woman and always has been. This IS who she is, not a character she is trying to play. It's more like all those residual he attributes are the fake mask, and she would give anything to be able to throw that mask into a wood chipper to make kindling for a bonfire.
I imagine some people think of their ASD as the fake mask that they wish they could destroy. Others feel the ASD mask is part of them and there is no need for any other mask. Then some people are of both minds, accepting the ASD mask but sometimes wanting to wear other masks as well. When I wear a mask that feels natural and comfortable to me, I don't feel like I'm faking it, and I don't feel like I have to "come off it," because there is nothing to come off of. When I'm wearing a mask that doesn't feel comfortable, it may take me a while to figure out why. It may not necessarily be the mask - I may like how it looks to the outside - but it doesn't quite conform to the curvature of my natural face yet, so I have to keep playing with it and tweaking it until it does feel right. |
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Matt62
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 05, 2012
Age: 51
Posts: 1156
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Because where I work, related to retail, this would not be an asset, believe me! Oh, I definitely have strengths with my personality: honesty, punctuality, almost workaholic.
But other things upset the puplic in general. Best not to do them. Best to pretend.
And I grew up when "Autistic" generally meant someone who lived/died in an institution, not a member of society. I learned to hide my more obvious (stimming mainly) traits by my preteen years.
Sincerely,
Matthew |
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fragileclover
Velociraptor
Joined: May 22, 2009
Posts: 496
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Persona |
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| dianthus wrote: | | kBillingsley wrote: | | ...I wondered if anyone else out there has created a sort of avatar with which to interact with the outside world. |
Yes. Totally. I consider my public persona to be an interface. The real me is always a bit distanced from it internally, observing and making notes on what is going on. My persona isn't "fake", it's still me, it's just a highly filtered, highly modulated version of me. |
I agree with this completely. While yes, I do have to 'force' some things in every day interaction, or restrain some of my traits, I don't feel like I'm a completely different person. I'm me, doing things that I typically wouldn't do by myself.
On the other hand, I think NTs are MUCH faker than we are. Yes, we have to fake being interested in something someone is saying, or force eye contact when we'd rather look up at the ceiling, but I don't think we're faking our personality. NTs do constantly. I notice that they will speak and carry themselves differently depending on the situation; my boyfriend alters his speech depending on the type of person he's hanging out with...he'll assimilate his personality to theirs. If he goes out with his friends from work, he'll go to the bar and talk about sports, even though he's more into movies and video games. I simply would not hang out with people if I knew I had to pretend to share all of their interests and POVs in order to have a good time.
_________________
Aspie Quiz: AS - 141/200, NT - 77/200 (Very likely an Aspie)
AQ: 34/50 (Aspie range)
EQ: 32 / SQ: 68 (Extreme Systemizing / AS or HFA)
Diagnosed with AS and Anxiety Disorder - NOS on 03/21/2012 |
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btbnnyr
Rabbit In Cat's Clothing
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 3110
Location: Lost Angleles Carmen Santiago
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Persona |
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| fragileclover wrote: | | dianthus wrote: | | kBillingsley wrote: | | ...I wondered if anyone else out there has created a sort of avatar with which to interact with the outside world. |
Yes. Totally. I consider my public persona to be an interface. The real me is always a bit distanced from it internally, observing and making notes on what is going on. My persona isn't "fake", it's still me, it's just a highly filtered, highly modulated version of me. |
I agree with this completely. While yes, I do have to 'force' some things in every day interaction, or restrain some of my traits, I don't feel like I'm a completely different person. I'm me, doing things that I typically wouldn't do by myself.
On the other hand, I think NTs are MUCH faker than we are. Yes, we have to fake being interested in something someone is saying, or force eye contact when we'd rather look up at the ceiling, but I don't think we're faking our personality. NTs do constantly. I notice that they will speak and carry themselves differently depending on the situation; my boyfriend alters his speech depending on the type of person he's hanging out with...he'll assimilate his personality to theirs. If he goes out with his friends from work, he'll go to the bar and talk about sports, even though he's more into movies and video games. I simply would not hang out with people if I knew I had to pretend to share all of their interests and POVs in order to have a good time. |
Yeah, NTs do what you described all the time. I don't think that NTs consider it to be faking though. It's just like an adjustment to fit in, which is pretty natural to make for NTs. My mother puts on various facades when she interacts with people outside the family, even around her friends, and my father sometimes calls her out on "faking", but she says that she is not faking at all, she is just behaving normally for that situation or that relationship. It's the normal thing for NTs to adjust themselves this way, I think. It's something that I can't really do. |
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fragileclover
Velociraptor
Joined: May 22, 2009
Posts: 496
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Persona |
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| btbnnyr wrote: | | fragileclover wrote: | | dianthus wrote: | | kBillingsley wrote: | | ...I wondered if anyone else out there has created a sort of avatar with which to interact with the outside world. |
Yes. Totally. I consider my public persona to be an interface. The real me is always a bit distanced from it internally, observing and making notes on what is going on. My persona isn't "fake", it's still me, it's just a highly filtered, highly modulated version of me. |
I agree with this completely. While yes, I do have to 'force' some things in every day interaction, or restrain some of my traits, I don't feel like I'm a completely different person. I'm me, doing things that I typically wouldn't do by myself.
On the other hand, I think NTs are MUCH faker than we are. Yes, we have to fake being interested in something someone is saying, or force eye contact when we'd rather look up at the ceiling, but I don't think we're faking our personality. NTs do constantly. I notice that they will speak and carry themselves differently depending on the situation; my boyfriend alters his speech depending on the type of person he's hanging out with...he'll assimilate his personality to theirs. If he goes out with his friends from work, he'll go to the bar and talk about sports, even though he's more into movies and video games. I simply would not hang out with people if I knew I had to pretend to share all of their interests and POVs in order to have a good time. |
Yeah, NTs do what you described all the time. I don't think that NTs consider it to be faking though. It's just like an adjustment to fit in, which is pretty natural to make for NTs. My mother puts on various facades when she interacts with people outside the family, even around her friends, and my father sometimes calls her out on "faking", but she says that she is not faking at all, she is just behaving normally for that situation or that relationship. It's the normal thing for NTs to adjust themselves this way, I think. It's something that I can't really do. |
Yeah, my boyfriend was surprised when I asked him why he was so fake around his friends. He didn't understand what I meant, and when I gave him an example, he was just like "Oh", like it was perfectly normal to do that.
That said, I'm guilty of doing something similar. I don't completely change my personality or speech for every situation, but I do have two distinct voices: a public voice and a private voice. My public voice is actually what my natural vocal cords probably sound like...very professional and intelligent sounding. My private voice is a voice that I feel most comfortable with, which is a childlike voice. My public/natural voice sounds very 'wrong' to me, like it's not me, so I modulate my voice in private, mostly around my boyfriend, to what I believe my voice should sound like.
_________________
Aspie Quiz: AS - 141/200, NT - 77/200 (Very likely an Aspie)
AQ: 34/50 (Aspie range)
EQ: 32 / SQ: 68 (Extreme Systemizing / AS or HFA)
Diagnosed with AS and Anxiety Disorder - NOS on 03/21/2012 |
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Sora
away away
Joined: Sep 16, 2006
Age: 25
Posts: 5645
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| NicoleG wrote: | | I imagine some people think of their ASD as the fake mask that they wish they could destroy. Others feel the ASD mask is part of them and there is no need for any other mask. Then some people are of both minds, accepting the ASD mask but sometimes wanting to wear other masks as well. |
Oh, I like that, it's well phrased and to the point.
_________________
Autism + ADHD
++++ no spell check when posting from my IPAD ++++
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The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. Terry Pratchett |
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SyphonFilter
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 08, 2011
Posts: 2072
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| "Let's get 'em! ALL OUT ATTACK!" |
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unduki
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 22, 2011
Posts: 651
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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You exist as the creation of the beholder. You act a certain way to make them think you are different than you are? ... like them? That is a lie. That is fake.
You exist in the circumstance. When indoors, you quiet your voice. When at a sporting event, you cheer. When in the presence of your elders, you behave respectably. When in the presence of children, you become an example. When with your friends, you let go a little. You adapt to your environment and the people around you.
You exist in your own mind alone. Your mind decides what actions you will take. Your mind reacts, reasons, justifies. Your mind is secret. No one can see it. Your persona is based on their perception, not yours.
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Since the 7th grade when I got my first pair, I've had this thing about jeans, even more now that they've added s-t-r-e-t-c-h. I think everything should be made of stretch denim. It just makes life easier. I don't care for dresses and think high heels hobble a woman. But, society says I must wear more formal clothing for more formal occasions, like I'm part of a parade. I belonged to a country club once where it was actually a rule that you couldn't wear blue jeans, so I wore black jeans because I am a conformist rebel. I wore silk jeans to a formal event.
Sometimes, I want to be a part of what's going on so I wear the costume. I went to charm school so I know how to wear a dress and heels. I can cake the crap onto my face so I resemble the latest celebrity. I try to make it fun but it's never comfortable. I feel like a loon, but comments say otherwise. I guess I'm fake.
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The man standing in front of me disgusts me. I know things about him that have nothing to do with the issue at hand. He is a vile and dishonest person. He betrayed and divorced my best friend. The rules say I have to treat him fairly, like anyone else, but I know he's not worthy of spit. I approve his request because the law says I must and he paid the fees.
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Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass; it's about learning to dance in the rain. |
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CockneyRebel
Mick Avory, Sensitive brown-eyed Sweet Pea
Joined: Jul 18, 2004
Age: 38
Posts: 87175
Location: In a quiet and peaceful garden, where gentle Mick Avory-like Sweet Peas grow.
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anthonyj37
Emu Egg
Joined: Feb 11, 2012
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:27 am Post subject: Re: Persona |
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| kBillingsley wrote: | | Many of us (that is to say, high-functioning developmentally disordered individuals) eventually learn behaviors that are "acceptable" to the general populace. Whether or not we agree to them or appreciate their basis, we will almost invariably follow them so as not to catch ridicule from others. With all of these corrections to our own natural states, can it be said that the person we are in public is the same as the person we are internally? I consider the individual that an autistic presents his or herself as, as a separate character or "persona" that the high-functioning autistic produces and acts out whenever necessary. Some of us enjoy our lifelong occupation of the thespian, while others dread the prospect of waking every morning to don a mask of normalcy. Regardless of opinion on the subject, I wondered if anyone else out there has created a sort of avatar with which to interact with the outside world. I have. I come off as polite, caring, joking, and try to give a general appeal of good will to all whom I encounter. I smile when told a joke, ask others their troubles when they appear disgruntled, and always establish eye contact when shaking the hand of a superior. I am, in my opinion, the consummate "normal" person. It is all a lie. I do not enjoy or understand the basis of eye contact or hand-shaking. I do not care about the petty troubles of others (unless they are life or livelihood threatening). I do enjoy a good laugh, but some of the jokes that I "laugh" are just terrible. Socializing outside of school is agonizing to me. These and many other characteristics that one may imply from my spurious, normal demeanor are all false. So, wrongplanet users, how fake are you? |
New member here. I've been thinking about this topic for quite some time now, and your post caught my eye. I am a NT who has suffered with social anxiety disorder/self-esteem issues for at least half my life (I'm 37 now). When I was younger, I was very shy and timid. I didn't make friends easily, and I generally did my best to avoid the limelight. As I've gotten older, I have become somewhat more outgoing and sociable, but I have developed this inner turmoil with myself in regards to how I "act" in public.
Basically, because of my past history with shyness and my struggles with social anxiety disorder, I have a very fine-tuned sense of the social world and how it works. And as I've gotten older, I have developed a very sour taste towards socializing in general. The reason being that fakery and deception are a large part of normal social interaction. Just like you said in your initial post, I go through the motions and wear the appropriate faces in various social situations; I laugh when I'm supposed to laugh, I inquire when I am supposed to inquire, and I generally do all the "normal" things we as humans are supposed to do in social situations. But doing all of that makes me feel so fake and deceitful.
Rarely does my public persona match my internal feelings and emotions. Socializing for me is hard work; it's depleting and tiring to have to flip the social switch and partake in the social world. I often think that if people knew my true thoughts and feelings, nobody would like me or want to be my friend. So, therein lies the problem: how do I become "ok" with being phony and deceitful? Truthfully, I want to be liked, I want to have more friends, and I do crave a vibrant social life. But I detest the paths that I have to take to get those things. I've always hated phony people. Two-faced, superficial, deceitful people have always bothered me. But then I realize I am just as two-faced and phony in social situations as are the people that I detest.
This is something that keeps me awake at night. If I weren't such a sensitive, introspective, and caring individual, I probably wouldn't think twice about all this stuff. But I've always been a sensitive guy. I've always noticed things in situations that other less aware people miss. I notice the subtle changes in behavior when people are around different people or in different social situations. I've always viewed those changes as mini performances designed to accomplish some hidden agenda or goal. But then I notice the same things in myself -- and I hate myself for it! Uggggh! This is a big problem for me. At 37, I'm still trying to make up for all the life I missed out on when I was in the depths of my social anxiety struggle. To make a long story shorter, I basically put my life on hold for 15 or so years. So, naturally, I have a lot of work to do, and improving my social life is high on my list of must-dos. But it's hard for me to do it when I feel like such a phony. Sorry this was so long. |
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NicoleG
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 26, 2011
Age: 36
Posts: 661
Location: Dallas-Fort Worth
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Persona |
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| anthonyj37 wrote: | | At 37, I'm still trying to make up for all the life I missed out on when I was in the depths of my social anxiety struggle. To make a long story shorter, I basically put my life on hold for 15 or so years. So, naturally, I have a lot of work to do, and improving my social life is high on my list of must-dos. But it's hard for me to do it when I feel like such a phony. Sorry this was so long. |
What else did you "put on hold" in your life? Could you start with those things instead of concentrating so much on the social aspects. If there's activities you'd like to do, be yourself while doing them, and maybe the social will just come along naturally. |
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FireMinstrel
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 06, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 596
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | "Let's get 'em! ALL OUT ATTACK!" |
AHAHAHAHA!!!!!! I was WAITING for that inevitable reference! 
_________________
"I'm sorry, I seem to have a tin ear for other people's feelings..." -Naoto Shirogane |
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anthonyj37
Emu Egg
Joined: Feb 11, 2012
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Persona |
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| NicoleG wrote: | | anthonyj37 wrote: | | At 37, I'm still trying to make up for all the life I missed out on when I was in the depths of my social anxiety struggle. To make a long story shorter, I basically put my life on hold for 15 or so years. So, naturally, I have a lot of work to do, and improving my social life is high on my list of must-dos. But it's hard for me to do it when I feel like such a phony. Sorry this was so long. |
What else did you "put on hold" in your life? Could you start with those things instead of concentrating so much on the social aspects. If there's activities you'd like to do, be yourself while doing them, and maybe the social will just come along naturally. |
My entire life was stagnant. I didn't finish college. My occupational/career choices were sub-par and never fulfilling. Relations with my family and friends deteriorated, mainly because of how "I" felt and not because of anything that they did. Although I still had a small number of close friends, relations with them deteriorated because I withdrew and avoided them. Now, at 37, all of my formerly close friends are married, have kids, have great careers, etc. Now, at 37, I'm embarrassed to go around these people because of how little I've been able to do in my life. Also, I feel bad and guilty for having alienated myself from them for so long, because they were all great friends who did nothing wrong to me; it was just how I always felt with the depression, social anxiety, etc.
I returned to college last year, and I'm trying to finish the college degree that I started many years ago. It's awkward being a 37-year-old college student. The only thing that helps me is that I look pretty young for my age, so I don't really stand out when I'm around normal-aged college students. But the social anxiety problem is still with me, at least to a degree. I am a giant work-in-progress! Thank you for your response though. Reading these posts on here is helpful! |
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