MrXxx
Moderator/Enigmatus Paradoxius
Joined: May 12, 2010
Posts: 5678
Location: New England
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 Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:37 pm Post subject: I was asked to share this: |
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This is a long involved story. I decided to share it rather than send Ajee a pm, on the slim chance it might interest and/or inspire somebody. It's about an Aspie family (mine), along with difficulties and triumphs of being in an ASD marriage. Be forewarned! It's very long.
It isn't meant to be a "roadmap" for successful marriages. What worked for us won't work for everyone. But who knows? Maybe there is something. Some small detail in this that will help just one person. If that's all that comes of it, cool. Even if it doesn't help anyone, for once in my life, I feel like I've done something amazingly difficult that's worth bragging about.
I've meditated long and hard about whether or not to post this publicly. I almost didn't. There's some pretty personal stuff here I'm really not too comfortable sharing, but I feel like it's time to step out of my comfort zone again. That said, all I ask is that anyone responding to this thread, please do your level best to avoid me regretting posting this.
If you're not sure how to do that, I'll spell it out simply. If this inspires you, or you just enjoyed reading it, let me know.
This is about my family, and my wife. It's about very personal things. It's not meant to be a book. I'm not asking for critiques or help. If your reaction is to criticize it, bugger off! Criticism is not welcome in this thread. 'nuff said.
Thanks.
If you're interested, the following post provides some background for this thread.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp4389090.html&highlight=#4389090
| Ajee wrote: | For the first eight years, and beyond, we were ALL on the spectrum but didn't know. During that entire time, ASD's were affecting our relationship in really, REALLY bad ways. There was a LOT of misunderstandings, a LOT of anger that built up, three brief separations, depression, missed work, job losses, financial fiascos, etc. etc. We very nearly were divorced twice.
Hello Mrxxx,
After all these episodes of separation and near divorces, how did you restart? Who convinced whom and how.
Thanks. |
ooh, man, is that ever a complex story. I'll have to get back to you on that.
And so, now that I have the time to compose this, here it is Ajee:
The "how did you restart" question is frankly very difficult to answer now. A lot of the first ten years or so of our marriage is kind of hard to remember now, party because I have some memory problems (severe ADD in particular), but also because so many different things happened, some of which I would never feel right posting on a public forum (I'm sure you understand). Some details I'll have to be kind of cryptic about.
Restarting. Well, I've lost count of how many times we've actually "restarted." It's hard to remember now the first time we did that. Actually what's really hard is to differentiate between true "restarts," and mutually deciding to just go on, without having really DEALT with core problems (usually a bad idea, but there were reasons for that we didn't realize at the time).
Le me start by explaining that though I am diagnosed PDD-NOS, I'm an Aspie. There is a blog entry on my profile explaining the rationale behing that statement. My wife has never been diagnosed, but we're positive now, after several years of on and off suspecting and doubting, that my wife is also on the spectrum, and likely has AS herself. We both studied AS and Autism beginning in 1999, when my second son started displaying behaviors I thought appeared very Autistic. Neither of us knew much about Autism. Shortly afterward, she found information about AS, showed it to me, and we both said, "OMG, that's our son, to a TEE!" Within a week we discovered that her brother had been diagnosed with AS a few years before that, but we were never told.
Long story short. We tried more than once to get our son evaluated, failed more than once to get a referral, then finally succeeded. Evaluation negative. More attempts to get doctors to take this seriously, all failed. We finally gave up. When he was in third grade, the school psychiatrist announced that she had evaluated both him and his younger brother. She found that he had AS, and his brother PDD-NOS. Our jaws dropped into our laps.
From there we had our eldest evaluated, and that came up negative, only to have the same doctor three years later reevaluate him and do a total 180. Shortly afterward, I got evaluated and that came up positive. By this time we were out of funds to have my wife evaluated, but we'd already spent years digging into literature and several books, and after years of her doubting strongly that she was, she now firmly believes she has always been on the spectrum too. I'm positive she's right.
This brings me to how different two people can be while both exist on the spectrum. My "brand" of ASD is in some ways the same has hers, yet in other ways if very different.
We both share unique outlooks on society, the world and life. Our values are very much the same as each other's, but very different from societal norms.
I'm not very empathetic. She has what some here call "hyper-empathy." She says she can actually feel physical pain when she sees other people hurt. When others share their emotions, she feels that too. I don't. At least, most of the time I don't. I do find it hard not to feel when others are distressed to the point of crying. No idea why, it just happens, but it's pretty rare.
Communication can be hard because we both have ADD as well, and have conflicting communication styles. We both need our information delivered to us in a particular way. The way she needs to receive it is different from how I need to, and to make matters worse, the way we each need it, isn't how we need to deliver it. The way we both need to deliver information is the same though, which is kind of ironic.
There are, of course, other subtle differences, but I think those two alone are probably the root of most of the trouble we had over the years.
So how did we get past all that?
Let me first dispel what may be a misconception of yours. You asked "who convinced whom?" The truth is, neither of us convinced the other. What made working things out in every case, up to and including the final "plateau" of success, wasn't convincing. See, neither of us ever needed and convincing about one thing. We both have ALWAYS felt very strongly that marriage should never be ended unless there is NO other option.
Our outlooks on that point were a bit different, but enough alike to pull us both through every single "incident" that almost permanently drove us apart. My wife came from a broken family. Her parents were divorced when she was five. Her mother had a few different men in her life, and remarried once (her brother's father). She promised herself all of her years of growing up that her kids would have a stable family no matter what she had to do to give it to them, within reason. I came from parents who stayed together until I was 24, though they went through several separations themselves. My father, though, never left. Ever. He was the one constant in my life, until this day. He has always been there, has always been available, even living out of state. He was my role model for fatherhood, and he set a very high standard for me to live up to.
Here's where I'm going go be a little cryptic.
My wife's experience with her biological parents involved some abuse. Her parents, though they've been divorced for many years, now get along fine, but my wife came into our marriage with that history. There was no abuse in my family. My parents had their problems, mostly caused by episodes that centered around my mother's conditions (she spent a lot of time in deep depressions, and left the home several times, but my dad was always there when she came home, until 1984, when he finally decided he'd had enough and filed for divorce). So I came from a background of male commitment, but a messed up mother confused about commitment. She came from somewhat unstable relationships (several of them), with a mother that never left, but men that couldn't be trusted and were sometimes abusive (none of the abuse was sexual). Though it was her mother that chose to end the relationships, it was she who was there for her all of her life, and still is. So she developed her own conviction long before she met me, to be there for her kids if and when she ever had them, and to give them a stable two parent home if at all possible. She wanted her kids to have what she never had, and I wanted my kids to have what I had had.
That alone is probably the core reason we both made it work throughout every trial we went through. Now, about those "trials."
The core reasons behind the problems we encountered with each other all centered around two conflicting traits we had. We believe both of these traits are Autism related.
She, with her hyper-empathy, tended to feel strong drive to please everyone around her. This was reinforced by her mother's attitude derived from being brought up in a Mennonite home, of what a woman's duty is in marriage. Kind of ironic when you think about it, considering how many relationships she'd been through. But her attitudes were mainly about accepting men as they are (she still has a kind of archaic view of men, which in some ways disgusts her, but that she still seems to accept as "male nature" that women are supposed to just "shut up and expect").
I, with my lack of empathy, but a learned type of "faked" empathy, was never very good at reading anyone's emotions, most importantly hers. I came from a father with strong religious beliefs, and a mother who doubted everything, and was not religious at all anymore by the time I was six. Dad instilled in me strong drive to keep a family together at all costs, short of physical danger.
When you put those two traits together, something confusing can happen, and it did with us.
I did some things early in our relationship that weren't good. I screwed up. These were things that hurt my wife deeply. Things that, early on, cast doubt on her conviction to keep us together. These are the things I won't get into. They aren't worth getting into anymore, because we've both finally dealt with them completely and put them behind us forever.
During that time though, she occasionally felt that she could not go on. That would bring forward my drive to do whatever it took to keep the family together. To make up for what I'd done in whatever way I could. The problem was some of what I did inadvertently caused her to feel manipulated. Because she felt manipulated, all of her friends and family assumed that was exactly what I was doing. It wasn't manipulation though. It was simply a drive to do what was right as correctly as I could. A drive to correct the wrongs I'd done. She knows that now, but it took her a long time to realize that it's the truth.
Another problem was that one of her traits was to keep things buried and not talk about them. If she did speak about deeper feelings she had, it was only in writing. You know how long it takes to solve serious problems when it's all done in writing? Too long! Anyway, that was one reason problems kept cropping up. Another reason is that though she felt controlled by me, I had no idea. I did eventually learn she did, through her notes to me, but it took a long time. And, though I would keep telling her I had no control whatsoever over her, that the door was right there, ten feet away, and I could not stop her if she really wanted to leave, she didn't see it that way.
She never saw it that way until one day, long after we had been trying for a long time, I made a "move" to express myself toward her, and she took it totally the wrong way. She felt threatened. Threatened because my communication skills were still very clumsy and awkward. I hadn't yet learned what the best ways were to communicate certain things to her. I was still socially inept, even with her. Especially with her.
Well, she felt threatened anyway, and a couple of days later I was served a restraining order. Long story short, a few weeks later she dropped the entire case after finding out that how things like that were really handled by the courts, was not clearly spelled out to her by the agency that helped her file the case. I got a call from my lawyer letting me know she'd dropped it, and a few hours later, I saw her driving by the store where I worked, and flagged her down. She actually pulled a u-turn to come back and talk to me. The first thing she did was apologize and explain that no one had told her that if she filed those papers SHE would be breaking the law if she even called me! In other words, she had no intention of creating the entirety of the situation as it played out once she filed. She was actually pissed off at the agency, the courts, and the entire legal system because of it.
So, we got back together, but not before some long serious talks about how to prevent this kind of thing from happening ever again.
The most important thing, the most valuable thing that came from that incident, was that she learned that if she had to, she could walk out that door and move on with her life any time she chose to. That was a major change for her, that eventually led to a few other somewhat lesser, but very important changes for her. She knew from that point forward that staying was HER choice. That was ten years ago.
There were a few other lesser incidents after that, but just as important. I stupidly lost it one night over a really dumb misunderstanding. No, I didn't threaten her. I was just very confused about a night out that I had initially been invited to by her. For reasons I won't get into, moral reasons related to past troubles I'd caused, I told her I felt that going to the place they were going to would be a bad idea for me. This was during a period while we were amicably working things out. We hadn't been out together in years. I stupidly assumed that if it were a bad idea for me to be there, we would make alternative plans. But she chose to go without me. I was hurt, confused, and didn't know how to express it. I chose a really bad way to do it. No one was endangered. It was just stupid, and it did scare her, even though it was only for about five minutes. Scared her enough to threaten divorce again.
To shorten this story further, that was the last "big" blow up we had, about six years ago. We settled it quickly though, by agreeing that as long as she felt uncomfortable around me, I would sleep on the couch until she invited me back upstairs. It was a bad night, but over the following days, we talked a lot. Not in writing either. We actually talked. I think I pissed her off enough she lost her inhibition to speak her mind aloud, at least for a while. I slept on the couch for the next two years. And for the first time in our entire relationship, it did't bother me. I kind of liked the freedom. I didn't have to worry about the TV keeping her up. I didn't have to worry about my snoring keeping her up. It was really cool actually feeling comfortable NOT being in our room. I had never felt comfortable sleeping apart before.
That situation eventually led to us both becoming more comfortable in our own skins, apart, but together. Still the closest of friends, but for a long time, friends without benefits. I was fine with that. She was fine with that. For two years. Until one night. No need to go there. Let's just say that about four years ago, I wasn't sleeping on the couch anymore.
Our relationship had always been either really hot or really cold. Over time, it cooled again. But it wasn't that so much that bothered me. She had always had a problem speaking three simple words. You know the ones. That, as it turned out, was the one final road block I needed for us to get around. It didn't bother her. At least she said it didn't. Well, I started pushing the envelop just over a year ago. I had voluntarily started sleeping on the couch again, and this time, she clearly didn't care for it. I knew she wanted me upstairs, but I was tired of not getting the "full package" of what my idea of what marriage ought to be. Eventually, she dropped me a note.
By the time we got to this point, it wasn't commitment that was missing. It was fulfillment. And we both felt that was missing for both of us. She'd read a book years before called The Five Love Languages. She basically insisted that we either read it together and do some of the exercises in it, or call it quits. She also suggested marriage counseling. As it turns out, we read the book. We did the exercises, and we exchanged notes. I learned things about her that didn't surprise me, and some that surprised the hell out of me. Same for her. We thought we knew each other, and we did, but we didn't know how to communicate with each other at all!
Within a month, I wasn't on the couch anymore. Our bedroom caught fire and burned steadily for months. She quit having any trouble at all with "those three words." We, uh, lost a lot of sleep. 
Looking back on it all, it's hard to believe how dense I used to be. Who knew that doing things as simple as the dishes or laundry would change what she saw from a burping lumpy couch potato into something she can't wait to tear the clothes off of? 
Okay, it wasn't all that simple, but it still seems laughably stupid that I had to read a freaking book to figure out something that now seems so ridiculously obvious.
Today, I think I've slept on the couch for almost two weeks, and it's not even a little deal anymore. She's fine. I'm fine. We're fine. I know I can go up whenever I want to. I know that if she wants me to, she'll drag me by the collar. We've never been more comfortable with each other. More in love today than we ever have been. Some days are just pure content, while other days, or nights, are hotter than hell.
Underneath it all, from the very beginning, and throughout it all, what I believe made us able to do this, were those core convictions in both of us, to honor the commitment we made to each other at all costs, within reason. It's that "within reason" part that can be tricky, but if you stick to it, it is possible to figure out whether it's really worth it. Hell and back. That's where we've been. I believe marriage HAS to be able to survive that. Not that everyone should put themselves through hell, just that if you happen to slip and find yourself there, it's got to be able to survive it. It won't, if there's no solid conviction to stick to commitment on both parts.
Ever heard of a guy named "Uncle Vondale?" His story is all over the Internet. He and his wife had just finished celebrating their fiftieth wedding anniversary when he was asked what the secret was to a long marriage. His answer?
"You don't leave and you don't die!"
That may be the secret to long marriage, but what about a long AND happy one?
I used to tell my wife love is a verb. It's not something that just "happens" it's something you do. Something you consciously choose to do. She used to be confused by that. It made sense to her in certain contexts, but she'd always say, "but there's got to be some magic there, otherwise what is it worth?"
My answer didn't make much sense to her years ago, but it does now. If you decide to love, and you do it, for the right reasons, the magic will come.
About eight months ago she came to me and told me she finally understands what I meant.
DAMMIT! I forgot to send her flowers today! Thank GOD she's forgiving. No matter. Now that she's not expecting them, it'll be an even bigger surprise when the show up.
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mv
Protector of the Realm
Joined: Jun 18, 2010
Posts: 3131
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Thank you so much for posting this. I think every real experience helps us, even if it's only a tiny bit (and I'm sure this will help some people a lot). |
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CockneyRebel
Mick Avory, Sensitive brown-eyed Sweet Pea
Joined: Jul 18, 2004
Age: 38
Posts: 87361
Location: In a quiet and peaceful garden, where gentle Mick Avory-like Sweet Peas grow.
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Ajee
Butterfly
Joined: Jun 29, 2011
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks a lot for sharing this.You have worked very hard on your relationship, I really appreciate your commitment towards your family.
In my own experience, its so easy to get confused in relationships when two partners have different neurology and things blow out of proportion with in moments. Saturday evening might have beena wonderful, romantic evening and Sunday evening you are alone in your room crying. I guess to develop a healthy communication takes years of efforts.
Thanks again. |
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MrXxx
Moderator/Enigmatus Paradoxius
Joined: May 12, 2010
Posts: 5678
Location: New England
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Ajee wrote: | Thanks a lot for sharing this.You have worked very hard on your relationship, I really appreciate your commitment towards your family.
In my own experience, its so easy to get confused in relationships when two partners have different neurology and things blow out of proportion with in moments. Saturday evening might have beena wonderful, romantic evening and Sunday evening you are alone in your room crying. I guess to develop a healthy communication takes years of efforts.
Thanks again. |
Yes it does. 16 years so far for us...
You're welcome.
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mds_02
Skank
Joined: Sep 10, 2011
Posts: 1970
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| I fear for my ability to maintain my relationship. It's the longest one I've ever had and I love her dearly and, though it took a while, am convinced that she loves me back. Still, I have a history of driving people away due to my communication issues, and there is a constant fear in the back of my mind that someday I'll do the same with her. It is comforting to hear stories like yours of people who've managed to make it work. Thank you for posting that. |
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Rhiannon0828
Velociraptor
Joined: Apr 21, 2011
Age: 44
Posts: 434
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for sharing this! My husband and I both read it, and could relate to parts of it. It's good to know that couples on the spectrum can make it work, even if it takes time and a lot of effort to work out the kinks. At not quite seven years together and three married, we know we still have some work ahead of us. Happy Valentines Day!
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MrXxx
Moderator/Enigmatus Paradoxius
Joined: May 12, 2010
Posts: 5678
Location: New England
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| mds_02 wrote: | | I fear for my ability to maintain my relationship. It's the longest one I've ever had and I love her dearly and, though it took a while, am convinced that she loves me back. Still, I have a history of driving people away due to my communication issues, and there is a constant fear in the back of my mind that someday I'll do the same with her. It is comforting to hear stories like yours of people who've managed to make it work. Thank you for posting that. |
You're fear sounds the same as my own during our early years of marriage. It wasn't unfounded fear in my case, but that fear can be a double-edged sword. Fear of any kind can work against you in insidious ways. It can destroy relationships
Communication. Good, clear communication is the key. My take on it is that with a marriage, it requires talking. Completely open and honest talking, but tempered. A note or letter now and again is fine, but if it is the main method of communication between partners, it takes too long to clear up misinterpretations of what's been written.
A lot of what made me able to work through wasn't anything I did. It was her eventual willingness to just start talking and quit fearing how I might react. That was one thing I forgot to mention in my OP. She used to be constantly afraid to speak her mind. Afraid to tell me there were things about me that made her uncomfortable. Frankly, and it almost sounds bad, but the end result wasn't. Once she lost her temper with me the night I had decided not to go out, and thought she wouldn't, and literally yelled at me for the first time, and I didn't get upset with her, but PRAISED her for finally standing her ground for once, she finally realized it was okay to just be herself, and demand her own needs.
Now, we sometimes do raise our voices, but it's not in anger at all. She knows now that I'm not going to storm out. Ironically, the only times I've ever done that was when she wouldn't talk at all. She finally realizes now that not holding back her anger (not with shouting anymore ~ she just flat out states her feelings now), actually serves as a kind of welding bond between us. It causes me to stick around and WORK on whatever the problem is, until it's resolved.
I always told her she was a much stronger woman than she realized. She knows that now, and man what a difference.
She also has spent a lot of time and effort coming to understand my Autism. To accept certain things that are either hard for me to change, or that I just haven't been able to change. I can't take any credit for that. It does take two. It only takes one not willing to work hard enough for it not to work.
Crap! I hear her shuffling dishes around in the kitchen. I haven't done them yet today. Time to go!
(Anyone who interprets this as "p****-whipped" can kiss my arse!  I know what I have waiting for me every night so... fill in the blanks yourself!  )
Hee hee!
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mds_02
Skank
Joined: Sep 10, 2011
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| MrXxx wrote: | | A lot of what made me able to work through wasn't anything I did. It was her eventual willingness to just start talking and quit fearing how I might react. That was one thing I forgot to mention in my OP. She used to be constantly afraid to speak her mind. Afraid to tell me there were things about me that made her uncomfortable. Frankly, and it almost sounds bad, but the end result wasn't. Once she lost her temper with me the night I had decided not to go out, and thought she wouldn't, and literally yelled at me for the first time, and I didn't get upset with her, but PRAISED her for finally standing her ground for once, she finally realized it was okay to just be herself, and demand her own needs. |
This sounds a lot like something that I think has helped us stay together as long as we have. I am more than willing to accommodate her needs, to make things better when I've angered her, to be there for her when she needs it. But I need her to tell me what those needs are, to tell me when she's angry, to tell me when I'm too distant. Thankfully, over the last couple of years she's gotten much better about that.
| Quote: | | She also has spent a lot of time and effort coming to understand my Autism. To accept certain things that are either hard for me to change, or that I just haven't been able to change. I can't take any credit for that. It does take two. It only takes one not willing to work hard enough for it not to work. |
This as well. When I became more open with it she became far more patient with me. She doesn't, and I don't expect her to, let her emotional needs go unmet anymore but, like I said, she now knows to just tell me what they are. And she also knows now that, even if I am sometimes very bad at it, I am trying. And that, most of the time, is all she really needs to feel that I care.
| Quote: | (Anyone who interprets this as "p****-whipped" can kiss my arse! I know what I have waiting for me every night so... fill in the blanks yourself! )
Hee hee! |
Lucky man. |
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MrXxx
Moderator/Enigmatus Paradoxius
Joined: May 12, 2010
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Location: New England
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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I wish it had been that easy. Luck had nothing to do with it.
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LittleBlackCat
Toucan
Joined: Sep 11, 2011
Posts: 266
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for sharing this, it was uplifting to read  |
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Brodi56
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Feb 28, 2012
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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I was deeply touched to read this post. Can I share with an NT friend who doesn't access this site?
Thanks,
Bob
Your Aspie score: 94 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 90 of 200
You seem to have both Aspie and neurotypical traits |
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Kjas
Onçinha
Joined: Feb 27, 2012
Age: 23
Posts: 5192
Location: the place I'm from doesn't exist anymore
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for sharing this.
I freely admit that on my really bad days, occasionally I fear that I will not find someone, and that on the chance I do, the fact that they will not be able to understand, let alone relate, will drive them away. I'm difficult enough without adding that into the picture! 
I think you are lucky to have found each other and kudos on the work you have put in to stay together.
We need more stories of those who have managed to do these sort of things, stuff that reminds it that it's possible. More positive stuff to balance out the negative, especially in the relationship department.
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