Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1654
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 Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Oodain wrote: |
what rational argument do you have that we do [have an inherent need to believe in God]?
i think most "faith" comes from a desire to have a neat all encompassing explanation for the why and how we are here question. |
Didn't you just answer your own question? |
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justalouise
Velociraptor
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 433
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| What a load of crap. |
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Oodain
big chief wulla bamboom alakaway
Joined: Jan 31, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 5022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Declension wrote: | | Oodain wrote: |
what rational argument do you have that we do [have an inherent need to believe in God]?
i think most "faith" comes from a desire to have a neat all encompassing explanation for the why and how we are here question. |
Didn't you just answer your own question? |
i attempted it,
that is however only my opinion based on what i have observed,
but that isnt the same as being wired to believe, we are simply wired with some of the same worries and in a world where so much happens it is no wonder people are willing to cling to anything that gives them hope
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//through chaos comes complexity//
the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.
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Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1654
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Oodain wrote: | | but that isnt the same as being wired to believe |
| Oodain wrote: | | we are simply wired with some of the same worries and in a world where so much happens it is no wonder people are willing to cling to anything that gives them hope |
Maybe "wired" was a bad word. What I really meant is exactly what you seem to be saying: that the human condition is difficult to live with unless we put our faith in something transcendent and eternal. People can call this "God" if they want. But the word "God" comes with a lot of baggage. For example, the Christian who wrote the article makes the bizarre jump from "God" to "Jesus", maybe simply based on his cultural assumptions.
There is an old joke that Puritanism is "the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy". I've also heard it said that the New Atheism is "the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be having a transcendent experience". I think that it is this attitude that makes people "angry at God". |
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abacacus
Rock 'N Roll Outlaw
Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Age: 21
Posts: 3316
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not angry at god, I'm angry at christians.
There is a difference.
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A shot gun blast into the face of deceit
You'll gain your just reward.
We'll not rest until the purge is complete
You will reap what you've sown. |
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cw10
Phoenix
Joined: May 24, 2011
Age: 40
Posts: 973
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| abacacus wrote: | I'm not angry at god, I'm angry at christians.
There is a difference. |
You're angry, that's all that matters. Anger if left unchecked provokes an opposite effect of it's intention. I started to get angry at my recent vehicle issues, but I realized being angry at a defective part doesn't serve any purpose but to steal my time. So I let go of the anger. I still had to pay a few bucks to get it fixed but I'm only out the time it takes me to earn or make that money and not concerned about the issue itself. It's pointless. |
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abacacus
Rock 'N Roll Outlaw
Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Age: 21
Posts: 3316
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| cw10 wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | I'm not angry at god, I'm angry at christians.
There is a difference. |
You're angry, that's all that matters. Anger if left unchecked provokes an opposite effect of it's intention. I started to get angry at my recent vehicle issues, but I realized being angry at a defective part doesn't serve any purpose but to steal my time. So I let go of the anger. I still had to pay a few bucks to get it fixed but I'm only out the time it takes me to earn or make that money and not concerned about the issue itself. It's pointless. |
Anger is only pointless unless you use it.
Aside from that, I think it's justified to be ticked when a religion tries to shove it's particular brand of ridiculous "holy law" down your throat. How would you feel if tomorrow a bunch of Muslims showed up in your town and declared that it was under Sharia law?
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A shot gun blast into the face of deceit
You'll gain your just reward.
We'll not rest until the purge is complete
You will reap what you've sown. |
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cw10
Phoenix
Joined: May 24, 2011
Age: 40
Posts: 973
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| abacacus wrote: | Anger is only pointless unless you use it.
Aside from that, I think it's justified to be ticked when a religion tries to shove it's particular brand of ridiculous "holy law" down your throat. How would you feel if tomorrow a bunch of Muslims showed up in your town and declared that it was under Sharia law? |
Use anger yes, but constructively.
My town is still under United States authority. I'd simply call the police and have the rabble arrested. But that's a matter of law, and they are bound to it. You can only bind yourself any brand of morality if you choose to but not everyone thinks I'm right about that. On the same token you aren't bound to pay attention to it and it's not your job to persuade or influence people in any direction of faith or faithlessness unless you consider yourself a crusader. I consider myself a crusader, so I don't get offended by other philosophies because I have a strong resolve. I also don't open my mouth about religion unless I'm being preached to about religion. |
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abacacus
Rock 'N Roll Outlaw
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Age: 21
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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Law is what I'm talking about... take a look through the laws in your area, a fair few of them are christian laws that shouldn't apply to people who aren't christian.
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A shot gun blast into the face of deceit
You'll gain your just reward.
We'll not rest until the purge is complete
You will reap what you've sown. |
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cw10
Phoenix
Joined: May 24, 2011
Age: 40
Posts: 973
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| abacacus wrote: | | Law is what I'm talking about... take a look through the laws in your area, a fair few of them are christian laws that shouldn't apply to people who aren't christian. |
The research alone would take quote a long time. Perhaps you can point me in a direction, or list an example? |
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CrazyCatLord
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 25, 2011
Posts: 2177
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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Why would I be mad at Zeus?  I've never met the guy. |
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em_tsuj
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Mar 26, 2011
Age: 29
Posts: 47
Location: US
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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You say people are wired to believe in God. God is a western concept. What about other cultures? Polytheism, Buddhism, Taoism?
If you're mad at God, you are not an atheist. You have to believe in the concept in order to attach emotions to the concept. |
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CrazyCatLord
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 25, 2011
Posts: 2177
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Declension wrote: | This idea seems plausible to me. (Although not the Christian bits.)
It seems clear that most people naturally believe in God. |
Just like most people naturally believe in Bigfoot and UFOs  It's probably racial memory or something. I mean, where else would everyone get those ideas from?
| Declension wrote: | | It seems clear that most people naturally believe in God. So if one of these people decides to become an atheist, they will constantly have to be "reminding" themselves that they don't believe in God, even though their mind wants them to. They want to defend the intellectual position of atheism, but their intuition (rightly or wrongly) tells them that God exists, so they end up in a confused state where they are battling their own intuitions, which can look like "anger at God". |
It's especially hard during the Christmas holidays, because then I also have to constantly remind myself that I don't believe in Santa Claus. Damn, I really hate that jolly fat guy  |
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Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1654
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | Just like most people naturally believe in Bigfoot and UFOs |
I don't think that the cases are really comparable. Bigfoot and UFOs are extremely contingent things, with specific properties. Bigfoot in covered in hair, and UFOs can fly. It would be very surprising if two cultures independently came up with the idea of Bigfoot.
God isn't like that, at least not on a broad definition of "God". God is said to have very universal, natural properties, and is the sort of thing that any culture might come up with independently. I agree that some features of specific Gods are just as silly as Bigfoot. But there is a real core there which comes straight out of the universal human experience. |
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shrox
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 12, 2011
Posts: 3254
Location: OK let's go.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| I was going to answer, but...I just think I won't. |
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