CrazyCatLord
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Joined: Oct 25, 2011
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 Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| Declension wrote: | | CrazyCatLord wrote: | Just like most people naturally believe in Bigfoot and UFOs  |
I don't think that the cases are really comparable. Bigfoot and UFOs are extremely contingent things, with specific properties. Bigfoot in covered in hair, and UFOs can fly. It would be very surprising if two cultures independently came up with the idea of Bigfoot.
God isn't like that, at least not on a broad definition of "God". God is said to have very universal, natural properties, and is the sort of thing that any culture might come up with independently. I agree that some features of specific Gods are just as silly as Bigfoot. But there is a real core there which comes straight out of the universal human experience. |
Many cultures have independently come up with polytheistic pantheons full of specialized gods. A god of lightning, a fertility goddess, a god of war and so on. This recurring polytheistic theme was actually a lot more common than monotheism.
Monotheism is very rare outside of the three Abrahamic religions, which can all be traced back to one single belief system (Yahwehism / Judaism). And Judaism didn't start out as a monotheistic belief either btw. Before the Yahwehists outlawed the worship of other gods, the Israelites used to worship Asherah and Baal alongside Yahweh. There is archaeological evidence that Asherah used to be regarded as Yahweh's wife (link). So if anything, your argument is in favor of polytheism.
But there are also plenty of spiritual belief systems that don't involve deities at all (such as totemism, animism and shamanism). This shows that while multiple cultures can independently invent gods in order to explain natural phenomena, usually more than one god, not all humans have a tendency to believe in deities. Some believe in things like ancestral spirits, reincarnation or totem animals instead.
We can only draw one conclusion from human spiritual beliefs, namely that human cultures who have a poor understanding of natural phenomena tend to attribute agency to the natural world. |
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shrox
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Posts: 3254
Location: OK let's go.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | Declension wrote: | | CrazyCatLord wrote: | | Just like most people naturally believe in Bigfoot and UFOs |
I don't think that the cases are really comparable. Bigfoot and UFOs are extremely contingent things, with specific properties. Bigfoot in covered in hair, and UFOs can fly. It would be very surprising if two cultures independently came up with the idea of Bigfoot.
God isn't like that, at least not on a broad definition of "God". God is said to have very universal, natural properties, and is the sort of thing that any culture might come up with independently. I agree that some features of specific Gods are just as silly as Bigfoot. But there is a real core there which comes straight out of the universal human experience. |
Many cultures have independently come up with polytheistic pantheons full of specialized gods. A god of lightning, a fertility goddess, a god of war and so on. This recurring polytheistic theme was actually a lot more common than monotheism.
Monotheism is very rare outside of the three Abrahamic religions, which can all be traced back to one single belief system (Yahwehism / Judaism). And Judaism didn't start out as a monotheistic belief either btw. Before the Yahwehists outlawed the worship of other gods, the Israelites used to worship Asherah and Baal alongside Yahweh. There is archaeological evidence that Asherah used to be regarded as Yahweh's wife (link). So if anything, your argument is in favor of polytheism.
But there are also plenty of spiritual belief systems that don't involve deities at all (such as totemism, animism and shamanism). This shows that while multiple cultures can independently invent gods in order to explain natural phenomena, usually more than one god, not all humans have a tendency to believe in deities. Some believe in things like ancestral spirits, reincarnation or totem animals instead.
We can only draw one conclusion from human spiritual beliefs, namely that human cultures who have a poor understanding of natural phenomena tend to attribute agency to the natural world. |
I have always wondered, did "Lucy" (Australopithecus) have any concept or ideas about god or gods. Did the starts are night interest her? |
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Declension
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Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1654
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | But there are also plenty of spiritual belief systems that don't involve deities at all (such as totemism, animism and shamanism). This shows that while multiple cultures can independently invent gods in order to explain natural phenomena, usually more than one god, not all humans have a tendency to believe in deities. Some believe in things like ancestral spirits, reincarnation or totem animals instead. |
Yes, but I am perfectly content to broaden the definition of "God" so that it means almost anything. 
I guess what I'm trying to say is.... "Ultimate Reality"? Maybe that's what I'm trying to say. I think that the essential properties of God that I am thinking of are that God is eternal, unchanging, the source of everything, and more "real" than reality. I tend to agree with you that religions become silly precisely when they think of God as a person, or people.
| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | We can only draw one conclusion from human spiritual beliefs, namely that human cultures who have a poor understanding of natural phenomena tend to attribute agency to the natural world. |
Again, I think that God-as-agent is a colossal mistake. But not everybody understands God as an agent. |
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CrazyCatLord
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| shrox wrote: | | I have always wondered, did "Lucy" (Australopithecus) have any concept or ideas about god or gods. Did the starts are night interest her? |
Probably She might also have dreamed about her deceased relatives on occasion. I wonder what she made of those dreams? She probably assumed that her dead relatives must still be alive at some place. I've often thought that dreams might be the origin of religion.
But then again, Lucy could have been as pragmatic as a gorilla. Have you ever heard of Koko, the gorilla lady who was taught to communicate in sign language? This is what she said, or rather signed, when one of her human handlers asked her a question about death:
| Quote: | "Where do gorillas go when they die?" Maureen asked.
Koko replied, "Comfortable/hole/bye [the sign for kissing a person good-bye]."
"When do gorillas die?" she asked.
Koko replied with the signs "Trouble/old."
"How do gorillas feel when they die: happy, sad, afraid?"
"Sleep", answered Koko. |
Source: http://www.kajama.com/index.php?file=articledetail&id=DC508A2E-0F28-42CA-882B-8B4818CFB53E&PageNum=1
It appears that our fellow great apes are capable of astonishingly deep thoughts. |
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abacacus
Rock 'N Roll Outlaw
Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Age: 21
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| cw10 wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | Law is what I'm talking about... take a look through the laws in your area, a fair few of them are christian laws that shouldn't apply to people who aren't christian. |
The research alone would take quote a long time. Perhaps you can point me in a direction, or list an example? |
A very broad one would be prostitution.
_________________
A shot gun blast into the face of deceit
You'll gain your just reward.
We'll not rest until the purge is complete
You will reap what you've sown. |
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Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
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Age: 24
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Location: La belle province
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| abacacus wrote: | | cw10 wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | Law is what I'm talking about... take a look through the laws in your area, a fair few of them are christian laws that shouldn't apply to people who aren't christian. |
The research alone would take quote a long time. Perhaps you can point me in a direction, or list an example? |
A very broad one would be prostitution. |
Another, very obvious one, would be gay marriage
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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Vexcalibur
Proud to be smug as heck
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Joined: Jan 18, 2008
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:03 am Post subject: |
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UR WRONG CUZ UR ANGRY!
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hanyo
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| cw10 wrote: |
The research alone would take quote a long time. Perhaps you can point me in a direction, or list an example? |
One example I can think of is stores not being allowed to sell alcohol on Sunday. |
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01001011
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Joined: Mar 04, 2010
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:20 am Post subject: Re: When Atheists Are Angry at God |
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| iamnotaparakeet wrote: | When Atheists Are Angry at God
JOE CARTER
Link: http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0376.htm
| Quote: |
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Studies in traumatic events suggest a possible link between suffering, anger toward God, and doubts about God's existence. According to Cook and Wimberly (1983), 33% of parents who suffered the death of a child reported doubts about God in the first year of bereavement. In another study, 90% of mothers who had given birth to a profoundly retarded child voiced doubts about the existence of God (Childs, 1985). Our survey research with undergraduates has focused directly on the association between anger at God and self-reported drops in belief (Exline et al., 2004). In the wake of a negative life event, anger toward God predicted decreased belief in God's existence.
The most striking finding was that when Exline looked only at subjects who reported a drop in religious belief, their faith was least likely to recover if anger toward God was the cause of their loss of belief. In other words, anger toward God may not only lead people to atheism but give them a reason to cling to their disbelief.
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In the first study, doubt about 'god' does not imply angry at 'god', it is just a case of the problem of suffering.
The last study concern the _drop_ of belief in 'god', not those with no belief to begin with.
The conclusion does not follow. Fail. |
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shrox
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Posts: 3254
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| hanyo wrote: | | cw10 wrote: |
The research alone would take quote a long time. Perhaps you can point me in a direction, or list an example? |
One example I can think of is stores not being allowed to sell alcohol on Sunday. |
And the Sabbath is Saturday!! |
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NarcissusSavage
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Age: 31
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:23 am Post subject: Re: When Atheists Are Angry at God |
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Internet trolling 101. When you can not defend your position, and other efforts have not yet provoked a reaction...claim your subject is mad and ask them to explain. Eg.
"Why u mad for bro?"
Ah yes, the internet troll, such a fascinating individual.
_________________
I am Ignostic.
Go ahead and define god, with universal acceptance of said definition.
I'll wait.
Maybe you are too?
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shrox
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Location: OK let's go.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| People want to cite freewill for their own accomplishments, but want to blame god for tragic events. |
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NarcissusSavage
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Age: 31
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| shrox wrote: | | People want to cite freewill for their own accomplishments, but want to blame god for tragic events. |
I don't blame logically incoherent concepts (ie. gods etc.) for tragic events, personally. I generally, if pressed to place blame anywhere, cite the chain of preceding events that lead to the chain of reactions leading up to said "tragic" event, to the best of my ability to comprehend said chain of events. Maybe these "people" you are referring to, simply can't or don't comprehend the chain of events or causality very well, and absent a understood "cause" seek a supernatural logically flawed answer.
_________________
I am Ignostic.
Go ahead and define god, with universal acceptance of said definition.
I'll wait.
Maybe you are too?
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Thom_Fuleri
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Joined: Mar 08, 2010
Posts: 802
Location: Leicestershire, UK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| NarcissusSavage wrote: | | shrox wrote: | | People want to cite freewill for their own accomplishments, but want to blame god for tragic events. |
I don't blame logically incoherent concepts (ie. gods etc.) for tragic events, personally. I generally, if pressed to place blame anywhere, cite the chain of preceding events that lead to the chain of reactions leading up to said "tragic" event, to the best of my ability to comprehend said chain of events. Maybe these "people" you are referring to, simply can't or don't comprehend the chain of events or causality very well, and absent a understood "cause" seek a supernatural logically flawed answer. |
That's not what Shrox is getting at. It's the hypocrisy - if it goes well, it's me; if it goes wrong, it's God.
Oddly, some religions (Catholicism, I'm looking at you) have it the other way around - everything we do well, is thanks to God; if we screw up, it's our fault. Even the stuff we aren't responsible for, like earthquakes and birth defects, are due to our innate sin.
Mad. Either God's doing all of it, or none of it. Make your minds up, people! |
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simon_says
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Joined: Jan 21, 2011
Posts: 2443
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| shrox wrote: | | People want to cite freewill for their own accomplishments, but want to blame god for tragic events. |
No, I fully accept that every time I get angry a tsunami strikes asia. |
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