MCalavera
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 16, 2010
Age: 30
Posts: 3963
Location: Melbourne
|
 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:07 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| NarcissusSavage wrote: | | hanyo wrote: | | You are not correct. If you are able to do that then good for you but not everyone is able to do that. |
This is related to free will. I assume you believe humans have free will? Because you are arguing that we do not. And, me being only privy to my own mind, remain firm that indeed we do, by analogy, since I know I do. It is entirely possible this analogy does not hold true, as you seem to be arguing, and that other people are indeed emotional slaves to language stimuli.
I hope this is not the case, though. And if it is, those who lack free will in this manner have my pity. For that is a fairly sad thought to entertain.  |
If others don't have free will, then neither should you. You shouldn't be some exclusively special being among mankind. |
|
| Back to top |
|
techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14830
Location: A beautiful vector among many
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Lol, that's strange. When I posit a universe that's completely unthinking and nonsentient - there's nothing to be mad at. When I do get mad and feel life crashing down on me, in my case; I choose to turn that anger on video games, weights, martial arts, self-improvement, and sometimes the bottle if its the right night of the week.
To be angry at God though is essentially to believe in God. Perhaps they need to start correcting themselves and saying things like "Zeus dammit!" or "Great Zoroaster!" to get a better sense of what it is they're doing. Exploiting the image of something that you don't even believe exists is not only a bit silly but its a terrible coping mechanism for anger with life when you think about it, and a lot of the same things generating anger with life are just as likely the result of poor coping mechanisms further up the chain. |
|
| Back to top |
|
CrazyCatLord
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 25, 2011
Posts: 2177
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| NarcissusSavage wrote: | Words can cause no harm, only the listener can hurt themselves in response.
Speech should be completely free. I can say anything I wish, and will suffer any penalty another man forces upon me to so. I will remain defiant, always, to censorship. I encourage you to do the same. |
I have to disagree with this. Words can be intentionally hurtful. This might be justified in some cases and can be a useful wakeup call. But people who are subjected to constant bullying and verbal abuse will often develop symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder.
I'm a social recluse with a severe case of social anxiety. That was not always the case. I have never been physically abused in my life, but I have nonetheless slowly been driven into social isolation by continuous negative social feedback. Perhaps you are right that I hurt myself by letting it get to me, but if that is the case, I couldn't help it.
Edited to add: Think of gay teenagers who commit suicide in response to verbal harrassment. This probably shows best how hurtful language can be. Another example is the constant instigation of the political right wing in the USA. It is the reason that Dr. George Tiller was shot in broad daylight, and that Jacob Burris came home to find his children's cat brutally murdered with the word "liberal" painted onto its fur. Words have power. They can be used to dehumanize people, to the point where impressionable minds start plotting murder. I mean, look what Hitler did with words. |
|
| Back to top |
|
NarcissusSavage
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 03, 2009
Age: 31
Posts: 656
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | If others don't have free will, then neither should you. You shouldn't be some exclusively special being among mankind. |
That was my point. Since I feel I do have free will, it stands to reason that others do too... Unless this is not black and white. Maybe free will is not something you have or don't have, but have in degrees, or maybe it comes and goes depending on cercumstances.
| CrazyCatLord wrote: | I have to disagree with this. Words can be intentionally hurtful. This might be justified in some cases and can be a useful wakeup call. But people who are subjected to constant bullying and verbal abuse will often develop symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder.
I'm a social recluse with a severe case of social anxiety. That was not always the case. I have never been physically abused in my life, but I have nonetheless slowly been driven into social isolation by continuous negative social feedback. Perhaps you are right that I hurt myself by letting it get to me, but if that is the case, I couldn't help it.
Edited to add: Think of gay teenagers who commit suicide in response to verbal harrassment. This probably shows best how hurtful language can be. Another example is the constant instigation of the political right wing in the USA. It is the reason that Dr. George Tiller was shot in broad daylight, and that Jacob Burris came home to find his children's cat brutally murdered with the word "liberal" painted onto its fur. Words have power. They can be used to dehumanize people, to the point where impressionable minds start plotting murder. I mean, look what Hitler did with words. |
I think the intent to hurt is what causes the injury, not the words. But that is just opinion. I think the reason that not everyone that is subjected to verbal abuse develops symptoms of ptsd is due to what I suggested, that the injury is self inflicted. This may simply be a matter of people not knowing they can, or not knowing how to stop the self injury triggered by external language. It seems fairly clear that people have a range of tolerances, how does a "bad" word offend one individual, and not another? It is due to how they process the language stimuli internally.
I still think that is a very important distinction, and that it is not common enough knowledge that words cannot inflict emotional harm, unless they are allowed to do so.
To the portion you added, yes, I do agree. Words can indeed cause harm if people allow themselves to be manipulated by them, and since that seems to be common enough, the use of words to manipulate the masses can indeed be harmful on a physical level, vicariously. This is one of the things I despise about our species the most. People who allow themselves to be manipulated in this manner show signs of lacking free will completely, and it is frightening.
_________________
I am Ignostic.
Go ahead and define god, with universal acceptance of said definition.
I'll wait.
Maybe you are too?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
so_subtly_strange
Toucan
Joined: Jan 18, 2011
Age: 26
Posts: 289
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
i didnt even read the original post, WAY too long. maybe i will try after i write. i am not angry at god. or at fans of god, though i am sometimes annoyed if they try to convert me. actually my mother is probably the only person who fits into that category . . . . technically i no longer consider myself an athiest, a couple reasons.
First, i feel it just makes no sense that i must justify my beliefs or lack of beliefs to anyone, and the only thing that makes the term athiest mean anything is the fact that most people arent, which is entirely circumstantial. Causal certainly i understand why, memetic inheritance, but circumstantial nonetheless.
secondly, i think the purpose of a word should be directly related to the effect it has, or what it causes us to DO. Following this, God should refer to the reverence we have for something. Sure reverence is not necessarily much of an action, but it is technically a sort of action. There are many things such as nature, the natural physical laws, which to me are deserving of reverence. I might call these God. I feel like i should be able to say Gravity is my God, and call you a blasphemer if you say gravity doesn't deserve that kind of reverence. Of coarse i wont have much punishment in store for your blasphemy as religious folk sometimes do, i will just think you are stupid for your inability to see beauty in the laws of physics and such in their own right, without anthropomorphizing that they were lined up by some diety.
So i feel like i should be able to define God for myself. If by God you mean a human or any other conscious entity that created the universe, oversees it, has ultimate power over it, that is just sadly silly. That is NOT what i mean by God.
A quote came to mind, from Inherit the Wind
. . . . i cant find it on the internet, ill have to read it again when i get the chance. i dont want to misquote it so ill just say Inherit the Wind is a good book/play. read it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
so_subtly_strange
Toucan
Joined: Jan 18, 2011
Age: 26
Posts: 289
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ok i read it. you know they never asked me to participate in this study . . . however this is actually probably quite accurate. I can certainly admit a good deal of athiests became athiests and maintain their athiesm for immature reasons. Many atheists are very loathful religion, negative events perpetrated by religious people, and continued persecution by religious people. I simply realized that God did not make any sense. It made more sense that people created god to fulfill psychological needs. There's more to the story than that but i've already discussed it several times. Thats the just of it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
heavenlyabyss
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 10, 2011
Posts: 530
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| NarcissusSavage wrote: | | Quote: | | If others don't have free will, then neither should you. You shouldn't be some exclusively special being among mankind. |
That was my point. Since I feel I do have free will, it stands to reason that others do too... Unless this is not black and white. Maybe free will is not something you have or don't have, but have in degrees, or maybe it comes and goes depending on cercumstances.
| CrazyCatLord wrote: | I have to disagree with this. Words can be intentionally hurtful. This might be justified in some cases and can be a useful wakeup call. But people who are subjected to constant bullying and verbal abuse will often develop symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder.
I'm a social recluse with a severe case of social anxiety. That was not always the case. I have never been physically abused in my life, but I have nonetheless slowly been driven into social isolation by continuous negative social feedback. Perhaps you are right that I hurt myself by letting it get to me, but if that is the case, I couldn't help it.
Edited to add: Think of gay teenagers who commit suicide in response to verbal harrassment. This probably shows best how hurtful language can be. Another example is the constant instigation of the political right wing in the USA. It is the reason that Dr. George Tiller was shot in broad daylight, and that Jacob Burris came home to find his children's cat brutally murdered with the word "liberal" painted onto its fur. Words have power. They can be used to dehumanize people, to the point where impressionable minds start plotting murder. I mean, look what Hitler did with words. |
I think the intent to hurt is what causes the injury, not the words. But that is just opinion. I think the reason that not everyone that is subjected to verbal abuse develops symptoms of ptsd is due to what I suggested, that the injury is self inflicted. This may simply be a matter of people not knowing they can, or not knowing how to stop the self injury triggered by external language. It seems fairly clear that people have a range of tolerances, how does a "bad" word offend one individual, and not another? It is due to how they process the language stimuli internally.
I still think that is a very important distinction, and that it is not common enough knowledge that words cannot inflict emotional harm, unless they are allowed to do so.
To the portion you added, yes, I do agree. Words can indeed cause harm if people allow themselves to be manipulated by them, and since that seems to be common enough, the use of words to manipulate the masses can indeed be harmful on a physical level, vicariously. This is one of the things I despise about our species the most. People who allow themselves to be manipulated in this manner show signs of lacking free will completely, and it is frightening. |
I understand your viewpoint and I appreciate your refrain from attack. My post was a little dramatic, so I was actually expecting to be attacked.
You have a very good point actually. People do have control over themselves, do have free will, and are responsible for their actions.
Thinking that you can be manipulated by words will only make you feel more victimized.
Regardless, from a purely logical standpoint, my point still stands. A person can be broken by verbal abuse. I was referring to abuse, and not to normal speech as it commonly regarded.
Again, I do appreciate your point of view, so don't take it the wrong way. Most people would actually agree with you. I just find the mentality a little off-putting since the implication to me is that the victim is being blamed.
On the other hand, a person has the free will to decide whether or not they are a victim, and so you are 100% correct about that.
It is a weird situation in which denying reality can actually be beneficial to oneself. Accepting too much reality is sometimes harmful. |
|
| Back to top |
|
NarcissusSavage
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 03, 2009
Age: 31
Posts: 656
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| heavenlyabyss wrote: | I understand your viewpoint and I appreciate your refrain from attack. My post was a little dramatic, so I was actually expecting to be attacked.
You have a very good point actually. People do have control over themselves, do have free will, and are responsible for their actions.
Thinking that you can be manipulated by words will only make you feel more victimized.
Regardless, from a purely logical standpoint, my point still stands. A person can be broken by verbal abuse. I was referring to abuse, and not to normal speech as it commonly regarded.
Again, I do appreciate your point of view, so don't take it the wrong way. Most people would actually agree with you. I just find the mentality a little off-putting since the implication to me is that the victim is being blamed.
On the other hand, a person has the free will to decide whether or not they are a victim, and so you are 100% correct about that.
It is a weird situation in which denying reality can actually be beneficial to oneself. Accepting too much reality is sometimes harmful. |
Yeah, I don't mean to sound as though I am blaming the victim. But, in a sense I suppose I am, although that is only part of the story, really. I believe the victim has it within themselves to learn how to completely shrug off this form of abuse, and while they may not know of this capacity, or how to do so, could be taught or even learn it independently.
I also don't mean to imply that people are not capable of suffering verbal abuse, I simply contend that this is something that can be overcome.
On a personal note, I learned to shut out any/everything offensive from reflexively sparking negative hurtful emotions years ago. And am currently working towards reintroducing those reflexive emotions, but now, they are absent anything negative or bad(most of the time, it's not perfect yet). It's incredibly hard to explain, but I've had moments where I can feel and experience the emotion of anger, jealousy, sorrow etc. and it actually be a pleasant experience, and does not influence my own actions or judgment. I haven't completely master this yet, but I have done so with just turning the emotions off. I am incredibly focused on learning to master my own emotions and thoughts, though, and have spent enormous amounts of time and energy in this pursuit. So maybe this degree of success is out of reach of people who do not study and practice self control with monk like fervor for years....but being able to turn emotions off, especially negative reflex emotional reactions, that isn't nearly as difficult. I'm certain this is within the reach of everyone with just a little bit of attention and focus and practice.
The most important factor for me was isolating the "why" something offends me. Once you do that, the way to fixing it so it no longer does is usually self evident.
_________________
I am Ignostic.
Go ahead and define god, with universal acceptance of said definition.
I'll wait.
Maybe you are too?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
dizzywater
Pileated woodpecker
Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 194
Location: sitting by the computer
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It always amazes me how many otherwise sane and rational people claim to believe in God.
I have observed over the years that it seems to be so they can be part of the local "club", whatever variety of religion might be local to them. Then they go and gossip about each other each Sunday (or whatever day they fancy).
There is no way that people are born believing in God any more than they are born knowing the language of their parents. In both cases it becomes second nature to them only if they are surrounded by it from a young age.
Thank God no-one ever inflicted that on me  |
|
| Back to top |
|
shrox
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 12, 2011
Posts: 3254
Location: OK let's go.
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
"When Atheists Are Angry at God!"
On this week's show, a man feels a vague sense of dissatisfaction with the ice cream selection at the local shop!
Watch as he vents his anger and rage through a stream of curses and threats against a god that is not there!
Then stay tuned for America's Most Funny Secular Videos! |
|
| Back to top |
|
TheHouseholdCat
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 01, 2012
Posts: 667
Location: Berlin, Germany
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Do Atheists ever get angry at God? I always thought it was about getting angry at those who believe it's the only answer. ^^
_________________
EXPANDED CIRCLE OF FIFTHS
"It's how they see things. It's a way of bringing class to an environment, and I say that pejoratively because, obviously, good music is good music however it's created, however it's motivated." - Thomas Newman |
|
| Back to top |
|
TheHouseholdCat
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 01, 2012
Posts: 667
Location: Berlin, Germany
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| dizzywater wrote: | It always amazes me how many otherwise sane and rational people claim to believe in God.
I have observed over the years that it seems to be so they can be part of the local "club", whatever variety of religion might be local to them. Then they go and gossip about each other each Sunday (or whatever day they fancy).
There is no way that people are born believing in God any more than they are born knowing the language of their parents. In both cases it becomes second nature to them only if they are surrounded by it from a young age.
Thank God no-one ever inflicted that on me |
Like that one physicist who was talking about believing in God made him a moral person or something like that. He was talking about the Big Bang theory... It was weird and I got really pissed off.
Richard Dawkins once said we would believe in Ancient Greek Gods if our parents did. And that's just it. It IS a cultural thing.
_________________
EXPANDED CIRCLE OF FIFTHS
"It's how they see things. It's a way of bringing class to an environment, and I say that pejoratively because, obviously, good music is good music however it's created, however it's motivated." - Thomas Newman |
|
| Back to top |
|
TallyMan
Rebooting
Joined: Mar 31, 2008
Posts: 36583
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TheHouseholdCat wrote: |
Richard Dawkins once said we would believe in Ancient Greek Gods if our parents did. And that's just it. It IS a cultural thing. |
I hope you aren't blaspheming against Zeus. 
It is indeed a cultural thing. Kids born to Muslim parents generally become Muslims and kids born to Christian parents generally become Christians. Religion is like an endemic virus passing on its meme to each succeeding generation. Knowledge is the only cure, however a lot of these religions are quite adaptive and as a self defence mechanism they have evolved the ability to shut their eyes and close their ears to knowledge that is contrary to their dogma.
_________________
- signature - |
|
| Back to top |
|
Fnord
Enigmatic Threadkilling Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 17804
Location: Stendec
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TallyMan wrote: | | It is indeed a cultural thing. Kids born to Muslim parents generally become Muslims and kids born to Christian parents generally become Christians. Religion is like an endemic virus passing on its meme to each succeeding generation. Knowledge is the only cure, however a lot of these religions are quite adaptive and as a self defence mechanism they have evolved the ability to shut their eyes and close their ears to knowledge that is contrary to their dogma. |
Words to live by! |
|
| Back to top |
|
ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29275
Location: New Jersey
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
How could an atheist, which is a person who either does not believe God exists or outright denies the existence of God, be angry with God? The notion is absurd.
ruveyn |
|
| Back to top |
|
  |
Wrong Planet Autism Forum Index
-> Politics, Philosophy, and Religion
|
Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 Next
|
|
|
