techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14832
Location: A beautiful vector among many
|
 Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:00 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| circular wrote: |
I think that morality is something that is more common, and that is independent of religion or atheism. When someone say that what is right is god's will, it does not provide any information, because, what then would be god's will, well it is what's right. So really believing in god has nothing to do with morality. And sometimes, in the name of god, very immoral things are done. |
I think we also know how the dumb and ignorant are with facts though. People can pretty much disobey or ignore any rules that go over their heads.
| circular wrote: | | I would rather say that ethics as an atheist science, can have the role you are talking about. But ethics can be understood and supported by believers too. So, I don't really think that it should be "on the side" of atheism. Morality is something else. |
Well right, the argument is God/no God, especially as an atheist you or I could just as easily assert that many Christians have lead upstandingly moral lives without a God and that they simply didn't know that they were doing so. The trick is then also convincing them that there is enough of a tried and true motivational structure within atheism that people can go on showing the best of what 'humanity' is. I think that's where PR - central or otherwise - needs to be there. Also, it needs to be removed from the angry and bitter to walk the visible high road, like it would be great for instance to see something like an atheist version of the masons who'd be a bit like the intellectual paladins of society - who'd adhere to incredibly strong ethics, do great work, get their name out there, work side by side with Christians on works endeavors, and if Christians ever say anything to them about their lack of faith they'd politely brush it aside or just flatly tell them that they're glad to have the Christian there helping them (ie. kill them with kindness). Regardless it has to get into the societal neural memory that atheism can organize to do great things and show the best of humanity as much as religion; it just needs to be demonstrated and have visible examples.
| circular wrote: | | Where I agree with you is that while being an atheist, it is a good thing to remind that morality does mean something, even if it is not defined by any religous text. |
I think where a nihilist would get confused is that there are two realities - the objective and the subjective. If the objective unravels and essentially becomes vacuous to us in terms of leading us or even suggests we'd be better off extinct, the subjective needs to kick in, define its needs, define the needs and wants essentially of the human race, and we go from there to maximize liberty, safety, and inclusion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
circular
Deinonychus
Joined: Jan 27, 2012
Posts: 361
Location: France
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| techstepgenr8tion wrote: |
I think we also know how the dumb and ignorant are with facts though. People can pretty much disobey or ignore any rules that go over their heads. |
I don't understand. Who do you mean by ignorant ? Ignorant of religion ? In my opinion, religion is generally a form of ignorance.
And what do you think about disobeying ? Do you see it negatively ? Because I think that obeying order is not a moral value. The consequences do not depend on the fact that you obey but on the order that was given. You should not obey an order that has negative consequences. Well I am not sure what you wanted to say.
| Quote: | | it has to get into the societal neural memory that atheism can organize to do great things and show the best of humanity as much as religion; it just needs to be demonstrated and have visible examples. |
I agree with that. It's coming, slowely, but there are some examples already. For example, caritative associations are not always religious or at least the religious aspect can be non significant. |
|
| Back to top |
|
techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14832
Location: A beautiful vector among many
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| circular wrote: | | techstepgenr8tion wrote: |
I think we also know how the dumb and ignorant are with facts though. People can pretty much disobey or ignore any rules that go over their heads. |
I don't understand. Who do you mean by ignorant ? Ignorant of religion ? |
No, I mean that as morality needs to appeal to reason and well thought out arguments under an atheist system the dumb and ignorant will ignore any rule that goes over their heads. If someone's too basic to follow your argument they won't do it. I'm not saying this is a deal-killer for atheism or an atheistic rubric of culture, just that it would be naive to think that reason won't face just as many challenges as religion when its essentially being ladled out to apes by apes.
I guess all I'm saying - stay realistic and perhaps also realize that social conservatism as well in a lot of ways sprung from very real challenges that are even getting re-exumed at the present. I'm not advocating social conservatism, just saying never underestimate the wisdom of rules from the past even if the believers themselves seem to have no idea why they believe those things or where those rules came from. If it deals with a real problem, well, there needs to be a patch for that problem rather than willful ignorance of it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Mike1
Velociraptor
Joined: Jul 13, 2010
Posts: 428
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I don't believe in a God who sends people to Hell because they're not members of a certain religion. There are plenty of good people out there who practice religions other than Christianity. I believe that lacking morals and only caring about yourself will hurt you in this life and the life after this. Not because of eternal damnation, but because of personal guilt and the lack favor from the people and spirits around you. As for me, a lot of people aren't in my favor anyways so I don't care. I refuse to like anyone who doesn't like me. I manipulate parts of society, but not usually individual people and feel little guilt for it. Few things that I do are ever personal. I only care about whether spirits favor me. They're the only ones who are pure enough to have the right to judge me and whose oninion about me really matters. My life is affected more positively be the spirits around me than by the people around me. Despite that I've done many bad things and they should hate me by now, they've prevented many bad things from happening to me and have saved my life a number of times. They're the only ones who I can truly love and honor despite their opinion of me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Thom_Fuleri
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 08, 2010
Posts: 801
Location: Leicestershire, UK
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Free-will and Atheism |
|
|
| AudaciousLarue wrote: | | Is questioning everything really a "sin?" Is having free will putting you at odds with God, whom I really sometimes feel does exist, yet at the same time don't? |
Think of it this way.
If God is the type of being that would send you to an eternal punishment for asking questions and using the brain he gave you in the first place, then God is mentally unstable. A being like that is likely to send you to Hell for any reason, or no reason; even if you make it to an afterlife by his side, you'll have an eternity of walking on eggshells in case he flips out.
If God is more concerned that you believe unquestioningly than in what you actually DO in this life, you have to wonder what he wants us FOR. My best guess is food - subservient prey that walks meekly into the slaughterhouse. Christianity is littered with references to the "flock" and "the Lord is my shepherd". Avoid sin, grow plump and embrace an eternity as mutton chops.
But maybe God is more sensible than that. If God is truly looking to reward the good and punish the bad, your belief in him is irrelevant. Do something good with your life, make a difference, make life better for those around you. A just and worthy God will reward that far more than just going to church every week.
And of course, it's entirely possible (nay, likely) that God is a myth and Hell is a fiction, in which case you should demonstrate to your parents those Christian values that so many Christians fail to uphold - tell them you love them and that you forgive them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
CrazyCatLord
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 25, 2011
Posts: 2177
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike1 wrote: | I don't believe in a God who sends people to Hell because they're not members of a certain religion. There are plenty of good people out there who practice religions other than Christianity. I believe that lacking morals and only caring about yourself will hurt you in this life and the life after this.
... |
There are also plenty of good people who don't practice religion and don't lack morals. And there is certainly no shortage of immoral people who practice religion  |
|
| Back to top |
|
circular
Deinonychus
Joined: Jan 27, 2012
Posts: 361
Location: France
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | Mike1 wrote: | I don't believe in a God who sends people to Hell because they're not members of a certain religion. There are plenty of good people out there who practice religions other than Christianity. I believe that lacking morals and only caring about yourself will hurt you in this life and the life after this.
... |
There are also plenty of good people who don't practice religion and don't lack morals. And there is certainly no shortage of immoral people who practice religion |
And caring about ourselves is not a bad idea. You can care about others only if they allow you to do it, which is not always obvious.
| techstepgenr8tion wrote: |
No, I mean that as morality needs to appeal to reason and well thought out arguments under an atheist system the dumb and ignorant will ignore any rule that goes over their heads. If someone's too basic to follow your argument they won't do it. |
Well, we can decide to have simple rules. It is not necessary that everyone be capable of understand why each rule is here.
| Quote: | | I'm not advocating social conservatism, just saying never underestimate the wisdom of rules from the past even if the believers themselves seem to have no idea why they believe those things or where those rules came from. |
Well, we can analyse old rules to see if they are useful. Again, not everyone needs to do this. But the process of analyzing it can be completely atheist, consequentialist.
| Quote: | | If it deals with a real problem, well, there needs to be a patch for that problem rather than willful ignorance of it. |
What do you mean ? |
|
| Back to top |
|
cw10
Phoenix
Joined: May 24, 2011
Age: 40
Posts: 973
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 12091
Location: La belle province
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cw10 wrote: | | If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything. |
Nope
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
|
| Back to top |
|
cw10
Phoenix
Joined: May 24, 2011
Age: 40
Posts: 973
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Vigilans wrote: | | cw10 wrote: | | If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything. |
Nope |
Prove it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
kestrel
Phoenix
![]()
Joined: Jan 14, 2012
Posts: 574
Location: Ohio
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cw10 wrote: | | If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything. |
If you don't believe in a particular, you'll believe in a generalization?  |
|
| Back to top |
|
Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 12091
Location: La belle province
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cw10 wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | | cw10 wrote: | | If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything. |
Nope |
Prove it. |
People who "believe anything" are those who have the supernatural inclination you think is necessary for normalcy. Its not atheists, agnostics or apatheists who join crazy cults or throw millions at faith healers
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
|
| Back to top |
|
techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14832
Location: A beautiful vector among many
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cw10 wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | | cw10 wrote: | | If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything. |
Nope |
Prove it. |
Its a vacuous claim. There's no one alive who doesn't believe in something. Atheists believe in gravity, believe in physics, believe in chemistry, believe in biology, believe in process and scientific method, believe in the logical hold and meaning of human empathy, believe in common law, believe in due process. So far though I haven't run into many, if any atheists, who believe in unicorns. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Oodain
big chief wulla bamboom alakaway
Joined: Jan 31, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 5022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cw10 wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | | cw10 wrote: | | If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything. |
Nope |
Prove it. |
prove that people who dont believe in something will believe in anything (kinda contradictory in itself, barely consistent(see the above post by techstep), maybe you had an actual point behind it?)
it is an assertion and as such the burden of evidence falls on you and not everyone else to prove you wrong.
_________________
//through chaos comes complexity//
the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
cw10
Phoenix
Joined: May 24, 2011
Age: 40
Posts: 973
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | cw10 wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | | cw10 wrote: | | If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything. |
Nope |
Prove it. |
Its a vacuous claim. There's no one alive who doesn't believe in something. Atheists believe in gravity, believe in physics, believe in chemistry, believe in biology, believe in process and scientific method, believe in the logical hold and meaning of human empathy, believe in common law, believe in due process. So far though I haven't run into many, if any atheists, who believe in unicorns. |
Exactly. You prove my point.
Doesn't matter what you believe in, but it needs to be consistent with a firm base otherwise you can be thrown into doubt which isn't a bad thing, doubt is a natural form of error checking. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
