Vigilans
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Age: 24
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Location: La belle province
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 Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| cw10 wrote: | | techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | cw10 wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | | cw10 wrote: | | If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything. |
Nope |
Prove it. |
Its a vacuous claim. There's no one alive who doesn't believe in something. Atheists believe in gravity, believe in physics, believe in chemistry, believe in biology, believe in process and scientific method, believe in the logical hold and meaning of human empathy, believe in common law, believe in due process. So far though I haven't run into many, if any atheists, who believe in unicorns. |
Exactly. You prove my point.
Doesn't matter what you believe in, but it needs to be consistent with a firm base otherwise you can be thrown into doubt which isn't a bad thing, doubt is a natural form of error checking. |
But the non-supernatural do not count as a "firm base"? What is your point? This seems to be yet another vacuous straw man about atheists/etc from you
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14832
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| cw10 wrote: |
Exactly. You prove my point.
Doesn't matter what you believe in, but it needs to be consistent with a firm base otherwise you can be thrown into doubt which isn't a bad thing, doubt is a natural form of error checking. |
Secular non-theistic religions (meaning political ones, not Buddhism) are something that happens to people who decide not to believe in a deity but can't be honest enough with themselves or separate their emotions well enough to go the full distance. |
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cw10
Phoenix
Joined: May 24, 2011
Age: 40
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: | | cw10 wrote: | | techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | cw10 wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | | cw10 wrote: | | If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything. |
Nope |
Prove it. |
Its a vacuous claim. There's no one alive who doesn't believe in something. Atheists believe in gravity, believe in physics, believe in chemistry, believe in biology, believe in process and scientific method, believe in the logical hold and meaning of human empathy, believe in common law, believe in due process. So far though I haven't run into many, if any atheists, who believe in unicorns. |
Exactly. You prove my point.
Doesn't matter what you believe in, but it needs to be consistent with a firm base otherwise you can be thrown into doubt which isn't a bad thing, doubt is a natural form of error checking. |
But the non-supernatural do not count as a "firm base"? What is your point? This seems to be yet another vacuous straw man about atheists/etc from you |
You didn't read properly my argument. I didn't say you'd believe anything. I said you'd be more prone to believe in anything. No matter what your philosophy is, stand by it and have a good arguments to back up your belief.
Affirming yourself to be an atheist alone doesn't mean anything without a firm philosophy and knowledge of reason.
Maybe if you learn how to read Vigilans, you'd be better equipped to answer my challenges.  |
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Declension
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Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | Atheists believe in gravity, believe in physics, believe in chemistry, believe in biology, believe in process and scientific method, believe in the logical hold and meaning of human empathy, believe in common law, believe in due process. So far though I haven't run into many, if any atheists, who believe in unicorns. |
There are at least three meanings of the word "believe" that are being used here. I'll rewrite your example into three categories.
One of them is to believe that something is true:
- "believe that the current understanding of physics is correct" (nobody believes this, because it is impossible!)
- "believe that the current understanding of chemistry is correct"
- "believe that unicorns exist"
One of them is to advocate a certain method or principle:
- "advocate the scientific method"
- "advocate common law"
- "advocate due process"
The final one is to hold a certain moral principle as being morally right or good:
- "hold that empathy is good"
- "hold that common law is good" |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14832
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Declension wrote: |
There are at least three meanings of the word "believe" that are being used here. I'll rewrite your example into three categories.
One of them is to believe that something is true:
- "believe that the current understanding of physics is correct" (nobody believes this, because it is impossible!)
- "believe that the current understanding of chemistry is correct"
- "believe that unicorns exist"
One of them is to advocate a certain method or principle:
- "advocate the scientific method"
- "advocate common law"
- "advocate due process"
The final one is to hold a certain moral principle as being morally right or good:
- "hold that empathy is good"
- "hold that common law is good" |
One slight difference of opinion; I'd throw empathy in the second group as an instrument that I'd advocate, especially when it's well-informed. Physics and sciences would fit there as well. Unicorns might be morally right and good but that's fair, if they only exist in my mind they can be anything I want them to be. |
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Vigilans
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Joined: Jun 20, 2008
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Location: La belle province
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| cw10 wrote: | | You didn't read properly my argument. I didn't say you'd believe anything. I said you'd be more prone to believe in anything. |
I don't give a sh** about your semantic obfuscations, have fun weaving your little circles with someone who will make the mistake of giving you the benefit of the doubt. I'm not wasting time this way with you again.
| cw10 wrote: | No matter what your philosophy is, stand by it and have a good arguments to back up your belief.
Affirming yourself to be an atheist alone doesn't mean anything without a firm philosophy and knowledge of reason. |
Those who tend to be believers like you are those who are the ones falling for the biggest lies and fallacies. What exactly is it that atheists and other non-religious, disinterested or apathetic people are all rushing off to believe in? You don't really understand atheism. You presume that atheism defines a person's character in the way your own religiosity defines yours. It doesn't work that way
| cw10 wrote: | | Maybe if you learn how to read Vigilans, you'd be better equipped to answer my challenges. |
This is coming from a user incapable of a single post without some sort of obfuscation or logical fallacy. I suggest you work on your communication skills before handing out any criticisms, since not a single argument you have made has been relevant or correct in the entirety of our interactions.
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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cw10
Phoenix
Joined: May 24, 2011
Age: 40
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: | | cw10 wrote: | | You didn't read properly my argument. I didn't say you'd believe anything. I said you'd be more prone to believe in anything. |
I don't give a sh** about your semantic obfuscations, have fun weaving your little circles with someone who will make the mistake of giving you the benefit of the doubt. I'm not wasting time this way with you again.
| cw10 wrote: | No matter what your philosophy is, stand by it and have a good arguments to back up your belief.
Affirming yourself to be an atheist alone doesn't mean anything without a firm philosophy and knowledge of reason. |
Those who tend to be believers like you are those who are the ones falling for the biggest lies and fallacies. What exactly is it that atheists and other non-religious, disinterested or apathetic people are all rushing off to believe in? You don't really understand atheism. You presume that atheism defines a person's character in the way your own religiosity defines yours. It doesn't work that way
| cw10 wrote: | | Maybe if you learn how to read Vigilans, you'd be better equipped to answer my challenges. |
This is coming from a user incapable of a single post without some sort of obfuscation or logical fallacy. I suggest you work on your communication skills before handing out any criticisms, since not a single argument you have made has been relevant or correct in the entirety of our interactions. |
Incorrect.
I'm sure all Atheism is the same...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism#Atheistic.2FDeistic_Satanism
"Atheistic or Deistic Satanism is generally the same as Ethical egoism, in that the highest good is acting in one's own interest. Satanism has essentially been called "Egoism with ritual"."
Or maybe not. I'm sure that's ^ both logical and empirical, to you maybe. |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14832
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Ah...so that's what Nicki Minaj was up to at the VMA.... supporting Ayn Rand! |
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Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
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Age: 24
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Location: La belle province
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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"Incorrect. Derp"
What's that? cw10 posts without actually replying to anything said? This is totally out of character
So... people who are atheist, are by default part of that stupid Church of Satan? Or something like it? Are tons of people flocking to join? :O
Satanism is retarded, Laveyan satanism is also retarded. Atheists don't join religious organizations or cults. Any more questions?
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14832
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: | "Incorrect. Derp"
What's that? cw10 posts without actually replying to anything said? This is totally out of character |
Out of character? He seems pretty consistent to me at least. |
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cw10
Phoenix
Joined: May 24, 2011
Age: 40
Posts: 973
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: | "Incorrect. Derp"
What's that? cw10 posts without actually replying to anything said? This is totally out of character
So... people who are atheist, are by default part of that stupid Church of Satan? Or something like it? Are tons of people flocking to join? :O
Satanism is retarded, Laveyan satanism is also retarded. Atheists don't join religious organizations or cults. Any more questions? |
You're a prime example of an ignorant person.
Atheists do join organizations and cults, but not ALL Atheists join organizations and cults. Laveyan satanism is a prime example. The world isn't divided into yes and no answers.
And atheism is a religion btw:
http://firstchurchofatheism.com/ |
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Master_Pedant
Rocky Anderson for President!
Joined: Mar 15, 2009
Posts: 4707
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | cw10 wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | | cw10 wrote: | | If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything. |
Nope |
Prove it. |
Its a vacuous claim. There's no one alive who doesn't believe in something. Atheists believe in gravity, believe in physics, believe in chemistry, believe in biology, believe in process and scientific method, believe in the logical hold and meaning of human empathy, believe in common law, believe in due process. So far though I haven't run into many, if any atheists, who believe in unicorns. |
I'd agree that literally the claim is utterly devoid of empirically falsifiable (or verifiable) content - almost anyone, in some sense, "believes" for all practical intents & purposes in something (of course, you could contest that if you started applying eliminative materialist psychology, but I won't for shake of simplicity). However, I've occasionally seen "believes in nothing" being used in a vernacular manner to mean "doesn't believe in anything supernatural - afterlife, God, soul).
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Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| It seems to me that saying "But you believe in things!" to a rationalist is just a nonsense sort of thing to say. Since when do rationalists claim to not believe anything? They don't claim anything of the sort! Rather, they claim that people ought to use certain methods to update their beliefs. |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14832
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Master_Pedant wrote: | | However, I've occasionally seen "believes in nothing" being used in a vernacular manner to mean "doesn't believe in anything supernatural - afterlife, God, soul). |
No, I've heard it used a lot - even back when I was a theist, so I'm no stranger to what it 'means' past the literal level. Its still a horrible throwaway tag line though, the kind of thing that might make people feel warm and fuzzy with it on a coffee mug or bumper sticker but its self-fed internal catharsis, not an argument.
As for what I said atheists do believe in - they're structural components and aspects of both the objective and (humanly) subjective world. They're components as well that illustrate that we aren't spinning in a black void with no sense up up from down or arses from holes in the ground. |
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RonP
Emu Egg
Joined: Dec 16, 2011
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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I am not a believer. However, agreeing with your parents wishes aren't always bad, even if you have to damn yourself with a lie to them.
In the end we all need to keep our parents happy and treat them with respect. Even when they are wrong. |
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