|
ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29309
Location: New Jersey
|
 Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:28 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| AstroGeek wrote: | | Declension wrote: | | The truth is that there are certain aspects of life that are better for everyone (and I do mean literally everyone) when they are not run by capitalism. Healthcare and education are good examples. |
Yes. Most of the Western world spends about half as much per capita per anum on health care and yet has longer life expectancies.
. |
That may be more due to eating and exercise habits than the health care system.
In the U.S. people eat too much crap and don't exercise nearly enough. No fiddling with the health-care system is going to overcome the damage the comes from that.
ruveyn |
|
| Back to top |
|
Fnord
Enigmatic Threadkilling Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 17841
Location: Stendec
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ruveyn wrote: | | AstroGeek wrote: | | Declension wrote: | | The truth is that there are certain aspects of life that are better for everyone (and I do mean literally everyone) when they are not run by capitalism. Healthcare and education are good examples. |
Yes. Most of the Western world spends about half as much per capita per anum on health care and yet has longer life expectancies. |
That may be more due to eating and exercise habits than the health care system. In the U.S. people eat too much crap and don't exercise nearly enough. No fiddling with the health-care system is going to overcome the damage the comes from that. ruveyn |
People who cause their own health problems usually expect others to care for and support them.
Right now, I'm munching an apple.
A year ago, it would have been a bag of crisps and a Snickers bar.
My last cholesterol test showed that I'm well within the healthy limits.
A year ago, my cholesterol was approaching 300.
I've lost about 20 pounds in a little over 8 weeks.
A year ago, I weighed about 235 pounds (6-foot tall).
My high-school classmates all look 20 years older than me (I'm 54) - grey or no hair, wrinkled skin, pot bellies, gimpy walks ... the guys look even worse. How will they be in another 10 to 20 years? What happens to them if SS and Medicaid / Medicare fail? We all may live into our 90s, but I intend to dance on my 90th birthday.
What good is it to live a century if you spend the last 30 years of your life in bed and hooked up to machines - even if you can afford it?
I'd rather be able to spend my wealth enjoying my retirement than merely enduring it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29309
Location: New Jersey
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ProfumoAffair wrote: |
ruveyn |
Ruveyn, until they invent stasis machines.[/quote]
What is a stasis machine?
And how will a stasis machine help to sell Edsel's to an unwilling public.
ruveyn |
|
| Back to top |
|
Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1653
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ruveyn wrote: | | In the U.S. people eat too much crap and don't exercise nearly enough. No fiddling with the health-care system is going to overcome the damage the comes from that. |
No, but there are other anticapitalist measures that can help that situation. Sin taxes on unhealthy food, incentives for walking or using bicycles... The point is, if you want to fix such things, you are by definition fighting the capitalist system. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Raptor
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 09, 2007
Posts: 4471
Location: Southeast U.S.A.
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| peebo wrote: | sheppard identifies ten inefficiencies in the article. do you disagree with him on all of them? there is a short summary of his points here:
http://juicedbooks.blogspot.com/2011/06/inefficiency-of-capitalism-anarchist.html
The Inefficiency of Capitalism: An Anarchist View by Brian Oliver Shepphard
Summary:
Sheppard points out that it has become automatic to think of capitalism as being efficient because this is what is oft repeated. Sheppard uses a neat list to dispell the accepted view and believes that the system is actually inefficient.
10 Inefficiencies of capitalism
1. Product duplication
2. Systematic Unemployment
3. Cost Shifting
4. Waste of Unsold Goods
5. The inefficiency of Hierarchies
6. Planned Obsolescence
7. Price Gouging
8. Creation of False Desires
9. Parasitic Jobs
10. Inefficient Distribution Patters
Notes on the Hx of Capitalism
The system developed out of feudalism after the fiefdoms and lords began to disappear ( . It is thought that serfs worked no more than an average of four hours a day. By modern standards, serfs were extremely lazy. As agricultural workers, there were long winter seasons without work to be done. The newly independent serfs found themselves needing to rent themselves out to people in order to buy their own food, pay new housing costs etc. People started moving around a lot more, seeking the most comfortable living conditions possible. Other contributions to capitalism were the rise of Protestantism, mercantilism and the Enclosure Acts that abolished the Commons (in England) (.
Working Definitions
Capitalism - system by which there is private ownership of the means of production
Efficiency - this is a loaded term that absolutely cannot be read as being something that is automatically positive. What is efficient for a business, may be bad for society or the environment. "Efficiency" and "convenience" as applied to our modern consumer society are words used to indicate that there is about to be less service, the consumer will do the work, or pay a fee. For example, automatic checkout lines at grocery stores, fast food restaurants and ATM's are all referred to as being fast and convenient. Companies find ways to get unthinking consumers to do labor and slyly redesignate the labor as "fast" and "fun."
Inefficiency #1 Product Duplication
Classic example would be breakfast cereals and bars of soap. It appears that people are making important decisions, but all of the products are remarkably similar, overpriced, and shoddy. For example, a person could buy unbranded whole oats for 5% of the cost of the processed oats and have a much healthier breakfast, getting more fiber, less sugar in the diet etc. (14).
Inefficiency #2 Systematic Unemployment
Capitalism would not work if everybody had full time employment. "Work" meaning it would decrease profits, until the system collapsed. Economists have looked under the microscope and discovered that there is something that, like gravity, exists, and this is called the Natural Rate of Unemployment (NRU) (1. There is some debate, but economists believe the NRU is between 4-9%. When the economy dips below the NRU, the economy becomes inflationary, as workers can begin demanding better wages and there is no competition for jobs. Because one must always remember, without competition, this divine system would cease functioning.
Inefficiency #3 Cost Shifting
Private interests seek to lower costs by pushing them onto the public sector. The military industrial complex in US serves heavily as a subsidy to technological firms. Another example would be how the auto and oil industry profits enormously from public infrastructure.
Inefficiency #6 Planned Obsolescence
Vance Packard's classic 1957 book The Waste Makers discussed limited life spans of products (23). In the 1930's a GE engineer proposed increasing sales by making lamp bulbs that lasted for the duration of only one battery cycle. Many products tell consumers when a product needs to be replaced using things like indicator strips. Many of these indicators tell consumers the products wear out when in reality, the products are still useful.
Inefficiency #7 Price Gouging
Decreased supply supposedly with increase demand, so limited editions and things like that are released. Video game consoles are released gradually. A classic example is the Cabbage Patch Kids dolls in the 1980's (24). |
If you want to see waste, inefficiency, and "parasitic jobs', etc... go work for the government why doncha.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
AstroGeek
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 29, 2011
Age: 19
Posts: 1477
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ruveyn wrote: | | AstroGeek wrote: | | Declension wrote: | | The truth is that there are certain aspects of life that are better for everyone (and I do mean literally everyone) when they are not run by capitalism. Healthcare and education are good examples. |
Yes. Most of the Western world spends about half as much per capita per anum on health care and yet has longer life expectancies.
. |
That may be more due to eating and exercise habits than the health care system.
In the U.S. people eat too much crap and don't exercise nearly enough. No fiddling with the health-care system is going to overcome the damage the comes from that.
ruveyn |
In Europe and Japan, yes. In Canada things aren't that much better diet and exercise wise than the USA. |
|
| Back to top |
|
AceOfSpades
Deeds not words
Joined: Feb 12, 2006
Posts: 3647
Location: Sean Penn, Cambodia
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ruveyn wrote: | | AstroGeek wrote: | | Declension wrote: | | The truth is that there are certain aspects of life that are better for everyone (and I do mean literally everyone) when they are not run by capitalism. Healthcare and education are good examples. |
Yes. Most of the Western world spends about half as much per capita per anum on health care and yet has longer life expectancies.
. |
That may be more due to eating and exercise habits than the health care system.
In the U.S. people eat too much crap and don't exercise nearly enough. No fiddling with the health-care system is going to overcome the damage the comes from that.
ruveyn |
Explain this:
Health care costs per capita (2009):
Obesity rate (2009)
So much for blaming Government intervention and obesity rates. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Burzum
Indeed
Joined: Apr 27, 2011
Posts: 1205
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ProfumoAffair wrote: | | And yet people still take that food out of bins and never catch food poisoning. |
I'm not saying they don't. The point is that it is an issue with regulation, not capitalism.
| Declension wrote: | | The truth is that there are certain aspects of life that are better for everyone (and I do mean literally everyone) when they are not run by capitalism. Healthcare and education are good examples. |
You made a statement, but made no argument to support it. Healthcare is not free market in the USA, that should be obvious.
I live in Australia, a country with "universal free healthcare". But we still have private healthcare, and almost everyone with a middle-class income or higher has private healthcare. If I have children, I will be sending them to a private school because they do a better job at educating children. And while yes, this is still crony capitalism, I would prefer it to government run programs.
So when you say that it is better for "everyone", that is patently false. Maybe it is better for the poor, but it is not better for me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
AceOfSpades
Deeds not words
Joined: Feb 12, 2006
Posts: 3647
Location: Sean Penn, Cambodia
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Burzum wrote: | | ProfumoAffair wrote: | | And yet people still take that food out of bins and never catch food poisoning. |
I'm not saying they don't. The point is that it is an issue with regulation, not capitalism.
| Declension wrote: | | The truth is that there are certain aspects of life that are better for everyone (and I do mean literally everyone) when they are not run by capitalism. Healthcare and education are good examples. |
You made a statement, but made no argument to support it. Healthcare is not free market in the USA, that should be obvious. |
Half of the overall cost per capita in the US is from the private sector. The overall cost per capita is about twice as much as other countries. So what about the US health care system not being a true free market? |
|
| Back to top |
|
Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1653
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Burzum wrote: | | So when you say that it is better for "everyone", that is patently false. Maybe it is better for the poor, but it is not better for me. |
You are taking too narrow a view. Everyone wants to live in a society where people don't die on the streets. Everyone wants to live in a society where everyone they meet has had a good education. This is what is known as a public good.
You can claim all you like that it wouldn't bother you to see people dying on the street, or to meet someone who has not had an education. I don't believe you. Living-in-a-civilised-society is an extremely valuable public good. It cannot be measured in money, but it makes everyone feel better in a way that no amount of money could. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Oodain
big chief wulla bamboom alakaway
Joined: Jan 31, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 5022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
besides ithere are plenty of countries where the public schools do just as good a job as they do in most private schools, where the real difference may lie is in ideology,
then again private schools in denmark are priced so competetively that almost everyone can use them (300 dollars a year, less for subsequent children)
of course there are "high class" schools, incidently i once had a class maet from one of these boardig prep schools, his education wasnt better in any tangible way,
his study discipline and how serious he took the subjects however was quite different, one of the reasons we often studied together.
as he said it his parents werent home that much so it hadnt mattered if he had been in a boarding school or at home alone.
_________________
//through chaos comes complexity//
the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
AstroGeek
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 29, 2011
Age: 19
Posts: 1477
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Burzum wrote: | | So when you say that it is better for "everyone", that is patently false. Maybe it is better for the poor, but it is not better for me. |
I can't comment on the Australian system, but almost everyone (as in 99.9% of people) in Canada would say that our system is better than the American one. And in the Canada at least, private education might be better quality (although I could tell some stories...) but it isn't really affordable for even the middle class, so public school is better for the majority.
But at the end of the day, efficiency is not the reason why I, or a lot of other people, advocate socialism and criticize capitalism. There are other, more fundamental reasons. Even if socialism or some other non-capitalist system is less efficient it might still be superior overall if you consider other qualities to be of greater importance (as I do). |
|
| Back to top |
|
Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1653
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| AstroGeek wrote: | | But at the end of the day, efficiency is not the reason why I, or a lot of other people, advocate socialism and criticize capitalism. |
It is possible to cast anticapitalist views in the language of "efficiency", if you allow for the existence of public goods. Capitalism is inefficient when it cannot provide an extremely valuable public good even though everyone wants it. Capitalism might provide the right quantities of hamburgers to the right people, but it doesn't provide people with their desired quantity of living-in-a-civilised-society. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Burzum
Indeed
Joined: Apr 27, 2011
Posts: 1205
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| AceOfSpades wrote: | | Half of the overall cost per capita in the US is from the private sector. The overall cost per capita is about twice as much as other countries. So what about the US health care system not being a true free market? |
How is 50% government expenditure on an industry considered free market? Ignoring that the USA regulates the sh** out of its healthcare industry.
| Declension wrote: | | Everyone wants to live in a society where people don't die on the streets. Everyone wants to live in a society where everyone they meet has had a good education. |
Yes, and the question is what is the best way of achieving such a goal?
| Declension wrote: | | Capitalism is inefficient when it cannot provide an extremely valuable public good even though everyone wants it |
And why would government be any more capable?
| Declension wrote: | | but it doesn't provide people with their desired quantity of living-in-a-civilised-society |
What is your definition of an uncivilized society? Death, disease, famine and crime? Then the uncivilized societies around the world are the very societies that depart from capitalism and its principles.
Capitalism does not prevent you from helping the poor. You are entirely free to donate your earnings to the poor. The money won't be wasted by government if you do it that way. 
| AstroGeek wrote: | | I can't comment on the Australian system, but almost everyone (as in 99.9% of people) in Canada would say that our system is better than the American one |
I'm not defending the American healthcare system.
| AstroGeek wrote: | | But at the end of the day, efficiency is not the reason why I, or a lot of other people, advocate socialism and criticize capitalism. There are other, more fundamental reasons. Even if socialism or some other non-capitalist system is less efficient it might still be superior overall if you consider other qualities to be of greater importance (as I do). |
Qualities such as what?
As an aside, which brand of socialism are you advocating? |
|
| Back to top |
|
Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1653
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Yes, and the question is what is the best way of achieving such a goal? |
The best way is to make healthcare and education a right, which will be provided by the government if you do not buy it on the market. Just like lawyers.
| Burzum wrote: | | And why would government be any more capable? |
Government is by definition capable of providing healthcare to everyone. That's the sort of thing that government is for. Capitalism, on the other hand, does not provide the guarantee that everyone will get healthcare. It only allows people to sell healthcare to other people at a price which allows them to make a profit. Thus, not everyone will be able to afford it, and so not everyone will get it.
| Quote: | | the uncivilized societies around the world are the very societies that depart from capitalism and its principles. |
I agree that the rich and free countries are fundamentally capitalist, and I agree that this is not an accident. But capitalism simply doesn't belong in certain spheres, spheres in which it can be shown to be inefficient. Also, there is a certain type of "death, disease, crime" that results from too much capitalism, rather than too little. In addition, third-party damages are created by capitalism, in the form of pollution and resource exploitation, that pose an existential threat to civilisation as we know it.
| Quote: | | Capitalism does not prevent you from helping the poor. You are entirely free to donate your earnings to the poor. |
Charity is a patchwork solution to a structural problem, and always comes with strings attached. It demeans the poor, and at its worst is simply a way for the rich to buy virtue. Everyone deserves a certain quality of life. If this quality of life is given as a gift, then it undermines the meaning of "deserves". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
