cooldryplace
Blue Jay
Joined: Mar 19, 2011
Posts: 82
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 Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:53 am Post subject: ASDs and intelligence & IQ |
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I am interested in this topic, and here are some relevant threads on WP I just looked over:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt166695.html
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt52856.html
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt134829.html
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt99549.html
Quick notes about IQ:
* The average of IQ is set by default at 100.
* The standard deviation is set at 15 (16 on the Stanford–Binet IS), so the "average range" where most people (68% of the population) lie is between 85 and 115.
* Mental impairment is an IQ of below 70.
Some people said that the minimum IQ requirement for Asperger's is an IQ over 70. This requirement seems to be the interpretation of this line from the Asperger's diagnosis criteria of the DSM-IV:
"E. There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood."
But others said that the minimum IQ requirement for Asperger's is actually higher: that you must have an IQ score that is within the average range (85-115), or one that is exactly average (100), or one that is even higher at 110 or 115.
They said that if you have an IQ below one of those, then you don't have Asperger's, you actually have high-functioning autism (HFA) or PDD-NOS.
What do you think?
One quote from another thread:
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The average IQ for people with AS tends to slightly below average. This study found an average of 95.76:
Zander, E.; Dahlgren, SO. “WISC-III index score profiles of 520 Swedish children with pervasive developmental disorders.” Psychological Assessment, v. 22 issue 2, 2010, p. 213-22.
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A note about HFA by Tony Attwood:
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Having reviewed the literature, we may be able to answer the question, is there a difference between Asperger's syndrome and High Functioning Autism? The reply is that the research and clinical experience would suggest that there is no clear evidence that they are different disorders. Their similarities are greater than their differences. We appear to be taking, particularly in Europe and Australia, a dimensional view of autism and Asperger' syndrome rather than a categorical approach
http://www.tonyattwood.com.au/pdfs/attwood1.pdf
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Phonic
WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW!!!??
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:55 am Post subject: |
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Before anyone gets a word in: IQ tests don't work on autistics, period.
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Lyll
Snowy Owl
Joined: Feb 18, 2012
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:35 am Post subject: |
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Can you tell me whay, phonic?
That would help me understand why I was considered dumb after IQ tests when I was a child. |
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nortier
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jan 16, 2011
Age: 25
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Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| Phonic wrote: |
Before anyone gets a word in: IQ tests don't work on autistics, period. |
| Lyll wrote: | | Can you tell me whay, phonic? That would help me understand why I was considered dumb after IQ tests when I was a child. |
Interesting question, Lyll. As far as I know, people with Asperger Syndrome are generally known to have either a normal or high IQ. IQ tests, however, are always tricky. Firstly, they want a test taker to produce only certain information generated by certain parts of the brain and functioning. While you might be extremely gifted musically or linguistically (in foreign languages), a standard IQ test might not filter that out and 'consider you dumb' as you said. Secondly, the tests generally ask to produce answers to questions people might already know. For instance, if you know of the Fibonacci sequence, you will have quite an easy time answering questions such as "Fill in the blank: 0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 [...] 89 144". These things distort the view you - or the 'test' - might have of your intelligence.
Lyll, I think it's good to always look at the factual strengths that you have, and not only an IQ score. Either way - high or low IQ - it will keep you from getting the full potential out of yourself  .
An IQ test is a snapshot of your brain at any given time, and the outcome can of course change over time (especially if you take the same test multiple times, which is usually discouraged). Nervousness, uncertainty (often problematic for people with Asperger's) can heavily influence the outcome.
I, of course, can't be sure why Phonic said the tests don't work on autistics, but maybe he/she thought it has something to do with the fact that we often have very narrow interests and thus no interest in producing correct answers to questions that we can't be bothered with?
But, yes, Phonic, why did you say that? I am curious! |
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Ellingtonia
Pileated woodpecker
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Age: 21
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| Intelligence and IQ are not the same thing. Intelligence is a complex, multi-faceted and ill-defined concept, whereas IQ is an imperfect attempt to measure a single interpretation of what intelligence is. An IQ attempts to measure intelligence, but what it really measures is how good you are at taking IQ tests. |
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TechnoDog
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| Lyll wrote: | Can you tell me whay, phonic?
That would help me understand why I was considered dumb after IQ tests when I was a child. |
Person who invented the IQ test, told people not to use it for measuring.
That a good enough answer? |
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OJani
a brat
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Age: 40
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:27 am Post subject: |
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There are a lot of reasons why IQ tests may not work as well on autistics, or why IQ tests are not good measures of intelligence after all.
Motivation. Someone who's too much in one's world can't be expected to co-operate well with the test administrator. Attention deficit. Problems with basic verbal comprehension. Some autistics, those who have weaker verbal ability simply can not understand instructions as well, let alone the test at hand. In other words, there's a minimum requirement or verbal communication ability, and if someone fails to meet it, it'd skew the results, whatever strengths they might have.
On the other hand, the more you are forced to use your brain in academic / work settings, the more you'll be able to score high on IQ test, since IQ tests are primarily designed to measure the ability to achieve academic success. There are better tools to measure academic success though, like WIAT-II, but basically IQ tests are not far from them (they correlate well). This means, if you've developed your mind in such a way as to better understand verbal instructions, learned some tricks how to improve on your weak short-time memory, read lots of books, done lots of puzzles, etc. etc., you'll score higher.
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"Aut viam inveniam aut faciam." (Hannibal) - Latin for "I'll either find a way or make one." |
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cooldryplace
Blue Jay
Joined: Mar 19, 2011
Posts: 82
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| I only want input on how IQ or other intelligence tests relate to people on the spectrum and their diagnoses. Please take general criticisms of IQ and psychometrics to another thread. |
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Unspecified
Sea Gull
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Age: 45
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:18 am Post subject: |
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I score in the 170s and my diagnosis is PDD-NOS.
So at least one of your assumptions is wrong. (Of course your post only said that aspies can't have low IQ, not that all PDD-NOS have low IQ, so maybe my assumption was wrong)
I agree that IQ tests show little else than your skills at solving IQ tests. |
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TechnoDog
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| cooldryplace wrote: | | I only want input on how IQ or other intelligence tests relate to people on the spectrum and their diagnoses. Please take general criticisms of IQ and psychometrics to another thread. |
A IQ test was not put infront of me colddryplace. when getting a diagnoses. I would repeat the same thing I said before to them.
| Unspecified wrote: | I score in the 170s and my diagnosis is PDD-NOS.
So at least one of your assumptions is wrong. (Of course your post only said that aspies can't have low IQ, not that all PDD-NOS have low IQ, so maybe my assumption was wrong)
I agree that IQ tests show little else than your skills at solving IQ tests. |
Well maybe you did not meet the criteria for As, or maybe the person was wrong.
Going on what he put, he said if you hav e high IQ you should of been As, if not the other ones. But ye have to wait for him to clear it up a bit. |
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Joe90
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:02 am Post subject: |
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I don't even know my IQ. I think mine is just average.
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Unspecified
Sea Gull
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| TechnoDog wrote: |
Going on what he put, he said if you hav e high IQ you should of been As, if not the other ones. But ye have to wait for him to clear it up a bit. |
Not really. He said that low IQ excludes Aspies, not that high IQ excludes PDD-NOS.
Agree on the waiting. |
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cooldryplace
Blue Jay
Joined: Mar 19, 2011
Posts: 82
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:46 am Post subject: |
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I only collected these pieces of information from other threads, I didn't say that these are official. I just posted this thread to maybe get some info into of how IQ can relate to the different diagnoses, from people more knowledgable than I.
I wanted to know if these people from the other threads are correct:
| retropolismetropolis wrote: | I read these different articles on the internet about Asperger's Syndrome. They keep saying that poeple with AS have high intelligence.
But do all people with Asperger's Syndrome to have a high IQ? |
| Danielismyname wrote: | No, people with AS are "normal". That's, above-average, below-average or center.
Mental retardation doesn't preclude AS either. |
| TLPG wrote: | Above average intelligence is a requirement for an Aspergers diagnosis. If your intelligence level is average, you are PDD-NOS and not Aspergers. You're still on the Spectrum of course.
Remember that "above average" means anything above 100. As I recall, the classification for "genius" is 150. |
| TLPG wrote: |
Brittany - the average range is between 80 and 100. Anyone above 100 is above average. Anyone who is diagnosed with AS and is below 100 needs a second opinion, because IMO the AS DX is wrong. It should be PDD-NOS. |
| Hala wrote: | To be diagnosed with Asperger's you have to have an average or above average IQ otherwise you will be diagnosed with a different Autistic Spectrum Disorder. If those children have IQs below 70 then it seems they have been misdiagnosed and are probably Autistic instead.
On average, Aspies do have a higher IQ than the general population. This is because any people with IQs below 70 (I think that's considered 'average') are not usually diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome. Therefore, of course, the average IQ for Aspies will be higher than the general population, because the general population contains people with IQs below 70, which obviously lowers the average. |
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Sora
away away
Joined: Sep 16, 2006
Age: 25
Posts: 5650
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:14 am Post subject: Re: ASDs and intelligence & IQ |
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| cooldryplace wrote: | I am interested in this topic, and here are some relevant threads on WP I just looked over:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt166695.html
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt52856.html
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt134829.html
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt99549.html
Quick notes about IQ:
* The average of IQ is set by default at 100.
* The standard deviation is set at 15 (16 on the Stanford–Binet IS), so the "average range" where most people (68% of the population) lie is between 85 and 115.
* Mental impairment is an IQ of below 70.
Some people said that the minimum IQ requirement for Asperger's is an IQ over 70. This requirement seems to be the interpretation of this line from the Asperger's diagnosis criteria of the DSM-IV:
"E. There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood." |
Almost, but not quite.
That line refers to (assuming you have read all important parts of the DSM, not just the summary of symptoms for quickview):
| Quote: | | In contrast to Autistic Disorder, Mental Retardation is not usually observed in Asperger's Disorder, although occasional cases in which Mild Mental Retardation is present have been noted (e.g.,when the Mental Retardation becomes apparent only in the school years, with no apparent cognitive or language delay in the first years of life). |
It's not common but kids (and adults) like these are not exactly super rare either. The IQ range defined to be a mild intellectual disability (mild mental retardation) goes from 69 to either 49 or 50 if I recall that correctly. So, what that means is, below 70 is not impossible.
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The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. Terry Pratchett |
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OJani
a brat
Joined: Feb 24, 2011
Age: 40
Posts: 2322
Location: Budapest, Hungary, Europe
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| cooldryplace wrote: | I only collected these pieces of information from other threads, I didn't say that these are official. I just posted this thread to maybe get some info into of how IQ can relate to the different diagnoses, from people more knowledgable than I.
I wanted to know if these people from the other threads are correct:
| retropolismetropolis wrote: | I read these different articles on the internet about Asperger's Syndrome. They keep saying that poeple with AS have high intelligence.
But do all people with Asperger's Syndrome to have a high IQ? |
| Danielismyname wrote: | No, people with AS are "normal". That's, above-average, below-average or center.
Mental retardation doesn't preclude AS either. |
| TLPG wrote: | Above average intelligence is a requirement for an Aspergers diagnosis. If your intelligence level is average, you are PDD-NOS and not Aspergers. You're still on the Spectrum of course.
Remember that "above average" means anything above 100. As I recall, the classification for "genius" is 150. |
| TLPG wrote: |
Brittany - the average range is between 80 and 100. Anyone above 100 is above average. Anyone who is diagnosed with AS and is below 100 needs a second opinion, because IMO the AS DX is wrong. It should be PDD-NOS. |
| Hala wrote: | To be diagnosed with Asperger's you have to have an average or above average IQ otherwise you will be diagnosed with a different Autistic Spectrum Disorder. If those children have IQs below 70 then it seems they have been misdiagnosed and are probably Autistic instead.
On average, Aspies do have a higher IQ than the general population. This is because any people with IQs below 70 (I think that's considered 'average') are not usually diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome. Therefore, of course, the average IQ for Aspies will be higher than the general population, because the general population contains people with IQs below 70, which obviously lowers the average. |
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Honestly, this is quite a confusion. I don't blame anybody, since even professionals can't agree on the differential diagnosis of Asperger's / Austism / (PDD-NOS). Differentiating by IQ scores is only a part of this confusion.
Also, average IQ score means a score anywhere between 85 and 115, by definition. An IQ of 100 is at the 50th percentile. |
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