Post 4434210 - (Curious: Do we have a right to avoid overloads?)

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Curious: Do we have a right to avoid overloads?

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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Curious: Do we have a right to avoid overloads?

FlintsDoorknob wrote:

gnihton wrote:

I was just wondering if Aspies have any kind of legal right to avoid situations that would almost certainly cause on overload. For example: Can a school force you to stand and do some kind of presentation in front of a large quantity of people against your will?

Understand that I am not using that as an example because it's my situation, I am genuinely just curious. I did used to be put in that kind of situation more often than I would have liked before I was diagnosed however, and needless to say it never ended well.

Almost?
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: Curious: Do we have a right to avoid overloads?

FlintsDoorknob wrote:

If you avoid everything that causes a sensory overload, eventually even the tiniest thing out of your control will cause you to have an overload. You have to expose yourself to some of it to some degree. A lot of it is unecessisary, but due to the nature of our society we have to cope with it on our end. I'm not saying it's fair I'm saying that's how it is. If you go your whole life avoiding it, no matter how almost physical painful it is...it's going to get worse because you will have never had any exposure towards it.

I was at a point where hearing someone butter toast downstairs caused me to have anxiety.

I went from that to having to cope to almost 24/7 disruptive disturbing noise at a hospital for 6 months. You doubt your ability to cope because it is easier to assume avoiding will make it better. Deep pressure input is the way to go. Function as well as you need to. You can cope with pretty much anything.

Also it really depends on each individual case and situation.

On the other hand, if you're overloaded too much, then you might also get more sensitive, and can get long term health problems, and sometimes even people who are constantly avoiding triggers are still getting too much input.

If someone acclimates, then that's good, they should controllably look into helping reduce their sensitivity. However it needs to be very carefully controlled.

If someone doesn't, and gets worse the more input they're around, then saying that this helps others doesn't change that that individual ends up being in a worse position.

I'm near constantly avoiding, even with my constant avoiding I'm in constant overload. If I wasn't near constantly avoiding I'd be near constantly dealing with migraines beyond just my tension headaches.

Personally, exposure makes me worse. I'm incredibly aware of this. I've made sure to track information beyond just how much I attempt to avoid. I used to live in a reasonably small town. Now I live in a city. Simply living in a city has drastically reduced my functioning capabilities to the point where its strongly reducing my quality of living and preventing me from doing what I want to do.

Deep pressure helps, deep pressure doesn't solve everything (and doesn't help everyone anyways). And "function as well as you need to" still assumes that you can function. When I'm unable to feed myself, then that's not 'as well as I need to'. When I'm unable to be happy with myself because I no longer have the mental capacity to do things related to my special interests, that's not 'as well as I need to'.

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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:31 pm Post subject:

Rascal77s wrote:

Verdandi wrote:

Rascal77s wrote:

I'm picking up the meaning just fine. The original post asked if there is a legal right to say no. The fact that the question is one of legal right presumes that the disability has been disclosed to the organization and accommodations have been accepted as part of the agreement between the two parties. If there was no disclosure prior to the incident it's pointless to even have a thread about legal protection because the person has waived his or her legal rights by not disclosing. So by the example given in the OP, why would I agree to get up in front of the audience if my employer or school has been notified I have a disability and can't get up in front of the audience? If I have legally protected myself why should I give a crap about repercussions? I have a moral and legal right to tell them to piss off (in a nice way Smile

) For your convenience I will paste the OP.

Actually, not disclosing doesn't waive your rights. You can disclose later and ask for accommodations even if you didn't initially disclose.

But you're talking about something outside the scope of the question. If he didn't disclose prior to the incident he can't say "oh btw I have AS and can't stand getting in front of crowds" while he is being written up.

Well if its not already disclosed they could bring it up when asked to present in front of an audience, it would not have to escalate into an 'incident.' Especially if there are other employes who are fine with doing a presentation or even employees who are better at doing a presentation. Or maybe the person with autism in question will simply not get a job that requires that task.
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Verdandi
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:46 pm Post subject:

Rascal77s wrote:

Verdandi wrote:

Rascal77s wrote:

) For your convenience I will paste the OP.

Actually, not disclosing doesn't waive your rights. You can disclose later and ask for accommodations even if you didn't initially disclose.

Actually, he can.

Jtuk
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:48 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I already apologized for misunderstanding, it was just kinda confusing...but yeah I kind of think it is up to the individual which things they would like to improve upon. There is no one size fits all 'you should do this' approach for these kinds of things. Its just from my experience of constantly trying to improve myself and beating myself up when I can't or couldn't in the past....So sometimes I feel like one has to pick their battles than trying to fight them all at once if that makes any sense. But maybe that is more or less in agreement with what was being said.

We are not that far away, don't worry about it Smile

FlintsDoorKnob is spot on about desensitising yourself, I'd say that an aspie always has a certain background level of stress, plus certain things that elevate this to the uncomfortable level.

Let's say:

A- = Alone, in a safe place or working on an interest (minimal stress)
A = Background Level of Stress and Anxiety (tolerable)
A+ = Boiling over, high stress / anixety level. (maximum stress)

Now your A things are different from my A things, my A+ things are different from your A+ things. My A+ things are certainly different from what they were 10 years ago and completely unrecognizable from 20 years ago. My A+ reaction hasn't changed a bit though!

Through exposing myself to my A+ things from time to time, they get a little easier. If I was to avoid all my A+ things, then i'd simply transfer some of my A things into A+ things. That would mean that instead of being A+ in large chaotic crowds or at a heights, or presenting to a hundred people or job interviews, I'd possibly feel A+ just leaving the house. Which would not be ideal. I keep things balanced well enough that my levels mean I can be employed and have some semblence of a social life.

Pretty much everyone who has written about surviving and being a successful aspie has made consious efforts to densensitise themselves.

Jason.

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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:17 pm Post subject:

Jtuk wrote:

Quote:

We are not that far away, don't worry about it Smile

Well that sounds like it works for you, I personally have had to more or less desensitize myself to some things.......which now days I can tolerate my sensory problems much better. There are some situations though that I can only handle so much of no matter how much I try to desensitize myself. For instance what I said about feeling like a brain-dead zombie if I am in a wal-mart and similar stores for over 30 minutes. Its not like I'm irritated by that environment but could put up with it....my brain literally starts decreasing functioning and anxiety starts building up. My solution to that is instead of trying to desensitize myself to that I don't spend over 30 minutes in those places, and will seek employment elsewhere since zombies aren't much help.

So I do agree that what you are doing can be very helpful, just not for everything...I don't think repeatedly exposing myself for to long to an environment or stimuli that causes extreme discomfort or decreases my mental functioning in an attempt to desensitize myself to something that is not very important to me, is worth it because I think that would cause more stress for me and not help...so sometimes its better to pick more important battles.

A more important battle for me would be...trying to feel better about myself and building a little confidence so people wont be able to cause me so much pain when they try to harrass me for instance. Also something I've been working on for quite some time is trying not to take things as personally or at least try and think it through before over-reacting. Much more important than being able to shop for hours on end.
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Rascal77s
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:33 pm Post subject:

Verdandi wrote:

Rascal77s wrote:

Verdandi wrote:

Rascal77s wrote:

) For your convenience I will paste the OP.

Actually, not disclosing doesn't waive your rights. You can disclose later and ask for accommodations even if you didn't initially disclose.

Actually, he can.

Not going to argue about this with you. Here you go. From the ADA website.

>Disability disclosure<

7. Q: When is an employer required to make a reasonable
accommodation?

A: An employer is only required to accommodate a "known"
disability of a qualified applicant or employee. Thus, it is the
employee s responsibility to tell the employer that he or she
needs a reasonable accommodation.

Jtuk
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:40 pm Post subject:

Sweetleaf wrote:

A supermarket is one of my A+ things as it happens, like you I can stand it for around 30 minutes. I have however learned to:

- Shop when it's quieter - Saturday afternoons or late evenings is best.
- Build a shopping routine - I organise my mental shopping list by aisle.
- Wear earphones / sunglasses when I remember.
- Play floor tile games.
- Go alone - people interfering with my bizarre shopping routines is a killer.
- Various routines / rituals for the checkout. - Any excuse to avoid small talk or eye contact with those in the queue.

So even though this is an A+ environment for me, the routine above, actually brings it closer to an A. It's bearable, I don't enjoy it, but I don't avoid it either. Routine trumps anxiety and that is an aspie trait and an effective strategy.

You are spending 30 minutes in there, so that's good. You could so easily avoid them entirely, but that would impact your independence.

Jason.

Verdandi
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:01 pm Post subject:

Rascal77s wrote:

Nothing here says that a person can't disclose when they're being pushed into something they find difficult or impossible, and ask for accommodations at that point. Once it's disclosed, it's known. And an employee who says so at that point is telling the employer that he or she needs a reasonable accommodation.

Actually, I've been in a situation where I had to disclose something right at the point it became relevant, and I didn't have any trouble getting an accommodation. I actually got sympathy and a free meal, and it wasn't even strictly about a diagnosis. But, whatever. It depends a lot on your employer, not just an overly strict reading of the law itself.

Rascal77s
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:14 pm Post subject:

Verdandi wrote:

Rascal77s wrote:

Nothing here says that a person can't disclose when they're being pushed into something they find difficult or impossible, and ask for accommodations at that point. Once it's disclosed, it's known. And an employee who says so at that point is telling the employer that he or she needs a reasonable accommodation.

Actually, I've been in a situation where I had to disclose something right at the point it became relevant, and I didn't have any trouble getting an accommodation. I actually got sympathy and a free meal. But, whatever. It depends a lot on your employer, not just an overly strict reading of the law itself.

You're arguing my point for me. What you just described is disclosure before the event happens. "When they're being pushed...." is before the event. What I've said all along and above link supports is that if you don't disclose til after an event occurs you can not say that the employer failed to make accommodations. In other words, if you get up on that stage and crap your pants without having disclosed your disability the change of underwear is on you.

PS. Did I tell you I like your kitty?

Marcia
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:50 pm Post subject:

I have experience of how it can all go horribly wrong if someone doesn't disclose a disability or difficulty before the event. It didn't happen to me, but to someone, I'll call him Bob, who worked in my section for a time when I was a manager. Briefly, Bob had been taken on as a temporary employee in another section of the large Council department I worked in. As a result of a change in employment law he became a permanent employee, but the temporary post he'd originally applied for ceased to exist. So, he was sent to my Section because we were short-staffed. Bob had obvious physical disabilities which he had disclosed when he first applied to work for the Council, so he was not to do anything at all physical, such as carrying boxes or whatever. It soon became apparent that he had other difficulties too, but he didn't make them official, and even when I and my job share partner spoke to him about these difficulties he didn't tell us what caused them. So, we informally accommodated him. He really struggled with making or receiving phone calls, so we ensured as best we could that he didn't have to use the phone. At times there were so few of us in the office that he had to answer the phone, so we made up scripts for him to use on those occasions and he would basically acknowledge the call and say that he would pass a message to the appropriate person who would call back as soon as they could. So far, so good. Then we were told that Bob was to go and work in the Cleansing Complaints Office for a few weeks as they were down to only one member of staff. This was clearly a disaster in the making as the reason they only had one person left was that they spent all day answering the phone and receiving complaints, often verbally abusive, from people whose bins hadn't been emptied. It was a horrible job and staff in that section were regularly off sick with stress. I and my job share partner spoke to the departmental personnel officer about this, explaining that Bob would not be able to cope. But Bob himself would have had to register with them his reasons for not being able to do that job and he refused to do this. He lasted less than two hours dealing with those phone calls, before writing a note which said, You can stick your f*ing job up your f**ing arses!" and going home. He was sacked. I was called to speak at his formal appeal against dismissal and it was at that hearing that Bob revealed for the first time that he was being treated for chronic depression, had been diagnosed with ADD and there was a couple of other diagnoses which I can't remember now, but which were directly relevant. He didn't reveal any of this to anyone before he succumbed to overload, and by the time he did disclose these diagnoses it was too late. If he had disclosed these issues at any time before actually going to the complaints section then all of that would have been avoided and we would have been able to formalise the accommodations we had already put in place for him.

Verdandi
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:26 pm Post subject:

Rascal77s wrote:

I read you as saying that you can't ask for accommodations if you didn't disclose earlier or you disclosed at the same time you asked for accommodations. You can even disclose after something like that happens and ask for accommodations (as in, not needing to do that again).

Quote:

PS. Did I tell you I like your kitty?

I don't recall you saying so before. That's Miss Kitty Fantastico, from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Willow and Tara got the kitten when they were spending a lot of time together (and Willow had possibly moved in, I don't recall) in the 4th season.

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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:49 pm Post subject:

Jtuk wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Well sometimes I have to go in stores, I just don't feel like pushing my 30 minute limit. But I don't really like shopping anyways so its not like I typically ever need to spend more than that in a store. I go to all the sections I am intrested in see if they have what I need, get distracted a bit when I see other random interesting things buy the crap and leave. As for routines I don't quite fit the typical aspie sterotype I probably could not come up with and stick to a routine if my life depended on it. So I have no routines to trump anxiety with and if anything the thought of trying to create and follow one makes me even more anxious. That is why I could do part time work I mean I can handle adhering for a schedule some of the time but I can't say in what order I do activities in. My shower schedule consists of when I notice my hairs dirty I take a shower. My eating schedule consists of 'am I hungry, no...wait I haven't eaten in two days so I must be, I just am not in the mood but will have to force something down anyways.' So yeah I typically have no idea what to do with myself for most of the time...and it might seem like that allows me a carefree fun time but it doesn't I feel more confused than I would like to most of the time.
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