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AngelRho
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 Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:45 am Post subject: Re: free will and atheism |
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| 01001011 wrote: | As long as we are talking here, some reality exists. This 'reality' is the unknown object. Saying something exists or not is just a statement about some properties of 'reality'.
Science, in the broadest term, is the rational study of reality. In particular, science must be relevant and unambiguous. For example 'tomorrow may or may not rain' is not relevant to the weather, while 'it will rain tomorrow' is because its truth depends on an event happening in reality. At the end, these requirements essentially results in the scientific method - that a hypothesis must be falsifiable and they are accepted based on observations.
So science essentially defines what can be reasonable said about 'reality'. |
Does science have a monopoly on what is reasonable?
| 01001011 wrote: | | I am asking under what condition you would conclude that biblical morality does NOT exist? I think this has been done to death in the last thread. |
Perhaps. Well, that condition would be a comparison between what actual Biblical morality IS and what is observed in the real world. Western justice is built on the lex talionis model, which also happens to be the same justice model of the OT. It would be pretty much impossible to conclude biblical morality does NOT exist since it is such a common practice.
| 01001011 wrote: | | We all know about the Euthyphro dilemma. Your naive divine command theory does not serve well as the basis of any 'universal morality'. |
It's hardly naive. And please explain why it does not serve well as such a basis. |
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shrox
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | shrox wrote: | | At some point one has to make a stand. I exist and God exists. That is my starting point. Better than sitting around mulling over if there is a starting point or not... |
I don't think that many of the people who have been raised as atheists mull over whether the universe has a starting point or not. It has absolutely no significance to people's everyday lives, unless they are taught that they have to hold a certain belief about the origin of the universe in order to receive some divine reward after death.
Besides, if you add a hypothetical god to the equation, you have to concern yourself with the question where that god came from. It just replaces one question with another. Of course you can say that god has always existed, but why not assume the same for the universe? For all we know, it might be cyclical. If the expansion speed of the universe does not exceed escape velocity, it will eventually contract and collapse into a singularity (known as the big crunch scenario). This singularity could then cause another big bang, so there is no reason to assume a starting point. |
Did you notice the part about me? Kind of funny that the smaller part of the statement got the response... |
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simon_says
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Perhaps. Well, that condition would be a comparison between what actual Biblical morality IS and what is observed in the real world. Western justice is built on the lex talionis model, which also happens to be the same justice model of the OT. It would be pretty much impossible to conclude biblical morality does NOT exist since it is such a common practice. |
I think he meant biblical morality as a concept. A way to falsify it as if it where a scientific hypothesis.
But your point about "lex talionis" is to suggest that because laws use an "if - then" punishment format then the bible is influential? I don't think so. Babylonian legal codes are much older than any known OT codes and they use the same structure of a life for a life. Do you really imagine that it's difficult for a civilization with writing, masonry and the wheel to construct an if-then statement to regulate society? |
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CrazyCatLord
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| shrox wrote: | | Did you notice the part about me? Kind of funny that the smaller part of the statement got the response... |
Your post seemed to imply that the alternative to believing in god as a starting point, perhaps the only alternative, is to sit around and break one's head about whether there is a starting point or not. I wanted to point out that this doesn't necessarily follow for people who don't believe in god. But perhaps I misread your post. |
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shrox
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | shrox wrote: | | Did you notice the part about me? Kind of funny that the smaller part of the statement got the response... |
Your post seemed to imply that the alternative to believing in god as a starting point, perhaps the only alternative, is to sit around and break one's head about whether there is a starting point or not. I wanted to point out that this doesn't necessarily follow for people who don't believe in god. But perhaps I misread your post. |
I mean I have decided that I exist. I have decided that God exists. Yet even though I believe that God existed before me, my decision about my personal existence came before my decision about God's existence. The first step is acknowledging that you exist, although I never had much trouble with that one... |
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Thom_Fuleri
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| shrox wrote: | | I mean I have decided that I exist. I have decided that God exists. Yet even though I believe that God existed before me, my decision about my personal existence came before my decision about God's existence. |
It's a good approach. It actually doesn't matter whether God exists or not (or even if you really do, in a physical sense!) - having that as your starting point is important for building a worldview. The original rationalist movement, attempting to build a sense of truth from those things we know to be true, never worked out. We need to start with *something*. It doesn't need to be right, just right enough to work.
A good example of this working in the real world is money. Those notes in your wallet are worthless, really. They work because we all buy into a reality that says "this piece of paper is worth something". It's not true, but we build a world around the lie that holds together and works. |
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shrox
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Thom_Fuleri wrote: | | shrox wrote: | | I mean I have decided that I exist. I have decided that God exists. Yet even though I believe that God existed before me, my decision about my personal existence came before my decision about God's existence. |
It's a good approach. It actually doesn't matter whether God exists or not (or even if you really do, in a physical sense!) - having that as your starting point is important for building a worldview. The original rationalist movement, attempting to build a sense of truth from those things we know to be true, never worked out. We need to start with *something*. It doesn't need to be right, just right enough to work.
A good example of this working in the real world is money. Those notes in your wallet are worthless, really. They work because we all buy into a reality that says "this piece of paper is worth something". It's not true, but we build a world around the lie that holds together and works. |
When do we acknowledge we exist? Maybe we come to that realization as a toddler. We see our hands in front of us and realize they are actually attached to our bodies, that we are more than just the pieces we can see. |
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SanityTheorist
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Gotta love religious nutjobs who criticize those that exercise their free will. Why any parent would or could say that to their child when biological love is so prevalant surprises me.
God is merely a creation to give meaning to our lives. When we find meaning god disappears. A death can cause loss of faith as well, ironically. Shows how much we are sure of god's existence.
I imagine we are fairly biased though being primarily logical beings. Most are fine with being told lies about a better life after death and the hocus pocus of an afterlife. I personally find it beautiful our death allows the creation of new life.
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shrox
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| SanityTheorist wrote: | Gotta love religious nutjobs who criticize those that exercise their free will. Why any parent would or could say that to their child when biological love is so prevalant surprises me.
God is merely a creation to give meaning to our lives. When we find meaning god disappears. A death can cause loss of faith as well, ironically. Shows how much we are sure of god's existence.
I imagine we are fairly biased though being primarily logical beings. Most are fine with being told lies about a better life after death and the hocus pocus of an afterlife. I personally find it beautiful our death allows the creation of new life. |
We understand your opinion. Not many share it though. |
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Thom_Fuleri
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| shrox wrote: | | When do we acknowledge we exist? Maybe we come to that realization as a toddler. We see our hands in front of us and realize they are actually attached to our bodies, that we are more than just the pieces we can see. |
I think it might work the other way around. We realise the universe exists, and come to realise that some bits of it we can control and some bits we can't. The bits we can operate are us. It's a little fuzzy around the edges, though. Especially when you start asking awkward questions like when our food becomes part of us, or whether our toenail and hair clippings are still us.
And though this has absolutely nothing to do with your points, SanityTheorist, I'd just like to mention that I don't believe in sanity. We're all mad in some capacity; most of us, however, are socially acceptable. At least until you start looking too closely. This is why a psychiatrist can always find something wrong with you. |
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01001011
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:59 am Post subject: Re: free will and atheism |
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| AngelRho wrote: |
Does science have a monopoly on what is reasonable?
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Pretty much yes.
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| 01001011 wrote: | | We all know about the Euthyphro dilemma. Your naive divine command theory does not serve well as the basis of any 'universal morality'. |
It's hardly naive. And please explain why it does not serve well as such a basis. |
1) You seem to think morality as fact. But facts are not commands or opinions. Even the opinion of god. According to Wiki, DCT is a subjectivist absolutist position, which is incompatible with the objectivist position.
Read the Wiki articles on moral realism and divine command theory and pick your position.
2) It is too arbitrary. If god commands you to take a machine gun to any mosque and shoot everybody praying inside, does it make the action moral? |
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shrox
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: free will and atheism |
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| 01001011 wrote: | | AngelRho wrote: |
Does science have a monopoly on what is reasonable?
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Pretty much yes.
| Quote: |
| 01001011 wrote: | | We all know about the Euthyphro dilemma. Your naive divine command theory does not serve well as the basis of any 'universal morality'. |
It's hardly naive. And please explain why it does not serve well as such a basis. |
1) You seem to think morality as fact. But facts are not commands or opinions. Even the opinion of god. According to Wiki, DCT is a subjectivist absolutist position, which is incompatible with the objectivist position. |
Morality is not a tangible fact, yet emotions are a fact. Morality and emotions are entirely dependent on self awareness of an individual.
| 01001011 wrote: |
Read the Wiki articles on moral realism and divine command theory and pick your position.
2) It is too arbitrary. If god commands you to take a machine gun to any mosque and shoot everybody praying inside, does it make the action moral? |
God hasn't communicated like that since before 6 B.C. So taking a machine gun to any mosque and shooting everybody praying inside would be that actions of an angry, sick, or demented person. |
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simon_says
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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Your comment reminds me of the Brother's Karamazov. Jesus comes back with a new message and the church kills him because, "everything you needed to say has already been said". They fetishzed ye olde revelations and would not accept a new one.
There is no way to verifty which revelations are divine and which are just crazy talk. Even the early Church had to create a series of councils to sort it out. You may or may not believe they got it right but it's certainly not obvious. |
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Vigilans
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| simon_says wrote: | | There is no way to verifty which revelations are divine and which are just crazy talk. |
Are you sure about that? 
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simon_says
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| From his perspective. My perspective is different. |
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