Post 4451253 - (5-year-old stabs 3 people over a juice box)

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5-year-old stabs 3 people over a juice box

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Sweetleaf
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:37 pm Post subject:

Asp-Z wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Asp-Z wrote:

I'm gonna make it clear for legal reasons that I don't know anything about the parents of the kid in the original article so I am not referring to them, but generally speaking, in a wider context, do you, Sweetleaf, genuinely believe that a kid who commits violent crimes has parents who are sensible enough to deal with such situations? If a kid has gotten to a stage where they've committed such a crime, it's likely because the parents have at least some role to play in the matter - perhaps not directly, but maybe they've simply been too negligent. Unless, of course, the kid has some sort of psychotic issue, in which case the parents can't exactly fix that either, whereas therapy from a young age might - and that may very well be what the court decides is the best action.

I think treating the child like a criminal would be the wrong approach, how is a 5 year old as responsible for their actions as an adult? The parents should probably be charged if its found they where neglecting or abusing the child but the child should not be treated like a criminal for reacting to the environment they are in before they have even developed the cognitive abilities, impulse control and reasoning abilities as an adult typically has.

You're repeating yourself an awful lot. First off, the child is a criminal. Fact. Now, as has been stated, children learn what's right and wrong from society. If a child's parents aren't doing that job well enough, someone else needs to. And, yes, maybe the parents need to be looked into as well. But the kid will need to be punished to ensure they grow up healthily and don't repeat this again.

Well I am done here, treating 5 year olds like criminals is bs....and I am not changing my mind. there is no point in trying to debate about this any further its a ridiculous notion anyways.
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Asp-Z
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:42 pm Post subject:

Bye bye!

MrXxx
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:55 pm Post subject:

Feralucce, It appears to me that you've made a great many assumptions. Clear communication IS a two-way street, requiring equal burdon on both the sender and the listener. I don't have time to adress your last post right now. Suffice to say that there are some things there I agree with, and others I don't. Much of the remainder though, I neither agree or disagree with, because some of your points just don't make any sense to me. No fault, they just don't compute in my own head. You do still seem to have a fixation on "incarceration" of some sort. A point I have never seen anyone in the thread advocating. The terms keep changing, but they're all your terms. Prison, to jail, and now juvenile facility. As far as I can tell so far no one advocating use of the justice system advocated any of them. Clearly, as far as I can tell right now, it's coming from conclusions you are drawing based on other things said. I'll have to get back to you later on those. _________________ MrXxx is taking a long sabbatical, and no longer moderating.

Feralucce
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:11 pm Post subject:

Mr Xxx: I was trying to clarify... Evidently, my "assumptions" (which are based on knowledge of the criminal justice system), are too much for the conversation... HOWEVER, i point out that the assumption that it would result in jail, prison, etc... was made before I jumped in... I am done... since there can be no agreement, even when I took great pains to establish a common frame of reference for communication, It seems that this is a waste of time. I wish you well _________________ my signature is shameless self promotion: Blog: http://wayoutonthecorner.blogspot.com Short Films: http://www.youtube.com/feralucce Vlog: http://www.youtube.com/slslookma company website: http://www.savagelightstudios.com

Vigilans
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:47 pm Post subject:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Asp-Z wrote:

MrXxx wrote:

Maybe the real issue here is that you don't have the level of faith in the justice system that Aspie-Z has. But that's a totally different issue.

Indeed; I place more faith in the criminal justice system than the parents of a kid who commits violent crimes.

oh for f*cks sake do you really think this 5 year old viewed it as committing a violent crime? they don't even know what the hell a crime is.

You make it sound like all five year olds are idiots

You make it sound like five year olds should be held to the same standards adults even if they have psychological problems, and regardless of the fact they have not developed as much cognitive ability and understanding of the legal system as adults.

Wow Sweetleaf, that's an amazing amount of information you can apparently glean from a handful of words Rolling Eyes

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Sweetleaf
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:55 pm Post subject:

Vigilans wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Asp-Z wrote:

MrXxx wrote:

Maybe the real issue here is that you don't have the level of faith in the justice system that Aspie-Z has. But that's a totally different issue.

Indeed; I place more faith in the criminal justice system than the parents of a kid who commits violent crimes.

oh for f*cks sake do you really think this 5 year old viewed it as committing a violent crime? they don't even know what the hell a crime is.

You make it sound like all five year olds are idiots

Wow Sweetleaf, that's an amazing amount of information you can apparently glean from a handful of words Rolling Eyes

same could be said about you claiming my explanation of 5 year olds not having the same cognitive abilities as adults is the same as implying they are all idiots...no matter to me really as I said I'm done with this debate.
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Vigilans
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:34 pm Post subject:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Asp-Z wrote:

MrXxx wrote:

Maybe the real issue here is that you don't have the level of faith in the justice system that Aspie-Z has. But that's a totally different issue.

Indeed; I place more faith in the criminal justice system than the parents of a kid who commits violent crimes.

oh for f*cks sake do you really think this 5 year old viewed it as committing a violent crime? they don't even know what the hell a crime is.

You make it sound like all five year olds are idiots

Wow Sweetleaf, that's an amazing amount of information you can apparently glean from a handful of words Rolling Eyes

Actually all I said was you make it sound like they're all idiots when you say they have no idea what a crime is, nothing you have said to me has anything to do with my contribution.
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do

Sweetleaf
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:35 pm Post subject:

Vigilans wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Asp-Z wrote:

MrXxx wrote:

Maybe the real issue here is that you don't have the level of faith in the justice system that Aspie-Z has. But that's a totally different issue.

Indeed; I place more faith in the criminal justice system than the parents of a kid who commits violent crimes.

oh for f*cks sake do you really think this 5 year old viewed it as committing a violent crime? they don't even know what the hell a crime is.

You make it sound like all five year olds are idiots

Wow Sweetleaf, that's an amazing amount of information you can apparently glean from a handful of words Rolling Eyes

Actually all I said was you make it sound like they're all idiots when you say they have no idea what a crime is, nothing you have said to me has anything to do with my contribution.

I said they don't have the cognitive and reasoning abilities to understand how the legal system works at the age of 5, not that they are idiots if you took it that way it's you're issue.
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Vigilans
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:38 pm Post subject:

Sweetleaf wrote:

I said they don't have the cognitive and reasoning abilities to understand how the legal system works at the age of 5, not that they are idiots if you took it that way it's you're issue.

...

Sweetleaf wrote:

oh for f*cks sake do you really think this 5 year old viewed it as committing a violent crime? they don't even know what the hell a crime is.

Sweetleaf
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:50 pm Post subject:

Vigilans wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

I said they don't have the cognitive and reasoning abilities to understand how the legal system works at the age of 5, not that they are idiots if you took it that way it's you're issue.

...

Sweetleaf wrote:

oh for f*cks sake do you really think this 5 year old viewed it as committing a violent crime? they don't even know what the hell a crime is.

'

Yes those are both quotes of mine point?
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Vigilans
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:01 pm Post subject:

sigh... _________________ Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do

Sweetleaf
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Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:58 pm Post subject:

alright that was silly, I guess I still disagree with some peoples opinions on this....but it was nothing to get all mental over I guess. _________________ It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream.

Jono
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Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:29 am Post subject:

Sweetleaf wrote:

alright that was silly, I guess I still disagree with some peoples opinions on this....but it was nothing to get all mental over I guess.

No, you were right. A five year old would not be considered by any judiciary to have criminal capacity and therefore would not be held responsible for his/her actions. There's an age limit even for a juvenile court.

aghogday
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Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:11 am Post subject:

Per the Defense of Infancy Laws in the US, Virginia does not specify a minimum age of responsibility for a child to charged with a crime, as well as some other states. However, in states that don't specify a limit, the defense can be used per common law, which sets the minimum age at 7, if a child was charged in the state. Technically the child could be charged, but it is extremely unlikely that the child would be found guilty, because of the Defense of Infancy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_infancy So, even though realistically it is extremely unlikely the child will be charged, the news report can't say one way or another, until the technical decision has been made. There is no record of any child in the US, actually found guilty of a crime at age 5. However, there was similiar speculation that a child at age 5 might be charged for drowning another child in a bathtub, last Summer, that raised concerns nationwide. As in this case, it was never stated that the child was going to be charged, just that it wasn't clear if the child would be charged. In a more recent case, a DA actually brought charges of sexual assault on a child of age 6, for playing doctor with another child. This was the only case I can find anywhere that a child that young had actually been charged with a crime. It's is generating outrage for good reason. The DA defended her action by stating the legislature hadn't provided a minimum age to proceed with charges, but the result of the DA's action of bringing those charges against the child is a federal lawsuit against the DA by the parents, seeking millions in damages. The boy being charged was previously diagnosed with ADHD, and has suffered trauma as a result of the incident. Surprised it wasn't linked here and discussed, unless I overlooked it. It's much more controversial that the current topic. http://www.channel3000.com/news/29827742/detail.html The boy in the stabbing incident is going to receive somekind of required intervention to change his behavior, but the likelyhood of him actually being charged with a crime and found guilty, is practically zero, per precedence of criminal charges filed against five year olds in the US. Not only would it result in outrage in the US, it could also result in outrage from International Human Rights Organizations. And, potentially result in lawsuits as well. And finally, there is absolutley no possibility that the child could be charged outside of the juvenile justice system, because the laws in Virginia set that minimum age at 14.

aghogday
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Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:40 am Post subject:

Jono wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

alright that was silly, I guess I still disagree with some peoples opinions on this....but it was nothing to get all mental over I guess.

In the US age limits vary by state, per the defense of infancy laws, I linked in the last post.

In Virginia there is no minimum age of criminal responsbility in the state laws for children, so the District Attorney could technically bring charges up like the DA did in the Sexual Assault case for the 6 year old linked in my last post.

But again, from my last post, the common law of age 7, could be evoked for defense of infancy, even though there is not an actual minimum age detailed in the laws of Virginia

Furthermore the guidelines for criminal capacity go well beyond whether or not the child understands the action is right or wrong, even if they meet minimum age requirements for defense of infancy laws. The child also has to understand the criminal ramifications of the act as well. That is a pretty high standard for a five or six year old.

It applies to the sexual assault case, as well. How many 6 year old kids, understand that playing Doctor could be sexual assault, and how many five year olds understand that when they use a sharp object to hurt another child it could be aggravated assault and battery?

Very likely that they wouldn't want to get caught from fear of getting in trouble with parents, but going to jail, could be off their radar screen.

So, Sweetleaf's statement, that a five year old child doesn't understand it is a crime, is a reasonable statement from the legal understanding of crime, required as understood by a child, to meet the guidelines required for criminal capacity, to be held criminally responsible for the action.

The stabbing with a sharp object is very disturbing, but throwing rocks and biting other kids could be potentially even more physically damaging to a five year old child. That kind of stuff happens all the time on the playground afterschool, but it's not anymore likely that those children are aware they are engaged in a criminal act, particularly if they are five years old.

That type of "crime" has probably gone down though, like a lot of other acts of fighting between kids, who are in a dark room somewhere on a computer or playing video games, instead of on the playground engaging in real life battle with other kids.

And not only for the kids, the older ones and adults as well. There was a study that actually referenced that phenomenon not too long ago; that video games were potentially reducing crimes of all kinds, because it was keeping people off the streets. Teenage pregnancy has gone down as well, potentially because of alternate activities as well.

Interesting, because many people blame violent video games on violent activity and porn on deviant sexual activity, but it appears instead potentially to be satiating people from the real life stuff.

In the comments in some of the articles on the 6 year old boy a few people were blaming exposure to porn for the kids playing doctor. And a few were blaming violent video games for the 5 year old kid using a sharp object against the other boys.

There wasn't any of that technology when I was a kid; if every kid that through a rock and hit another kid in the head, and all the six year olds playing doctor were incarcerated, a good portion of my first grade class seats would probably have been vacant.

Not to mention some of the parents, whose methods of corporal punishment, would not likely be accepted well today either, instead potentially meeting what might be current day domestic violence standards.

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