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simon_says
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2011
Posts: 2443
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 Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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I was never trained to think that way as a child so it doesnt really come up.
Though I do get angry at the anthropomorphic couch spirit if I stub my toe on the couch. It may have prepared a special place for me in the afterlife but it hasnt mentioned it as of yet. Maybe I'll get presents. |
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TM
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 2122
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | How could an atheist, which is a person who either does not believe God exists or outright denies the existence of God, be angry with God? The notion is absurd.
ruveyn |
It's easier for a believer to think that an Atheist is angry with God as opposed to with the behavior of the believer(s). You have to keep in mind that many believers consider their behavior to be in accordance with their personal interpretation of something like god and therefore their behavior is correct. If a believer's behavior is correct, then the only thing Atheist could possible be angry with is god. |
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KDraco
Butterfly
Joined: Mar 03, 2012
Posts: 10
Location: Rural Louisiana
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:08 am Post subject: |
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Many valid points, and just as many not so valid points have been made. I will respond by telling things from my perspective. Some of the points will be close or resemble points made, and some may counter points made.
I was raised christian in the very rural south. Hellfire and brimstone were preached to us at almost every turn, even in school to some extent. (Graduated in 1989) Oh some of the incredibly stupid things I thought and said growing up, it makes one cringe, it really does. Over the years I looked at other religions to better defend the beliefs that I was bought up with. Defend them I did, with a vehemence. (cringe) I also had a firm belief that all people, in the general sense, had an innate need for a god, a way of not only explaining the things beyond their understanding, but to justify the relinquishing of thought or responsibility. The more I studied of other religions the more that I noticed that many of them seemed to be using the same playbook in a sense, with names changed to fool the foolish. Studying the history of the religions led to the realization that many were created for political or military reasons, even though that is not how it was presented. I then really started to pay attention to the atrocities that were done by those of “faith.” I then started paying attention to the contradictions of faith. God is love, god is wrath, god is justice, blah, blah, blah. I admit for a while I was mad at god. Then I began to believe that if there was a god, that he really was none of these things, that he had no interest in us, much like most people have no interest in watching or being concerned about the minute growing of grass, except for when it was time mow. That we were really on our own. Either that or god was just a mindless presence much like oxygen. I finally arrived at the conclusion, based upon what I felt was best evidence that there indeed was no god, and never had been. That god is a fabrication for the false sense of security of the masses. The catholic church and muslim religions have realized the power of these fictions and have used them for great and nefarious purposes. This is not to say that muslims, catholics, christians, or any other religious people are to blame or evil. Although I do believe that the catholic church is a source of evil, but that is just my opinion. People honestly believe and that is okay, but I believe that they do themselves and everyone else a disservice when they use religion as an excuse not to think. Failure to think causes more harm than anything else, in my opinion. It is not god that I am mad at and to suggest that I am is beyond ludicrous. That would be like saying that German’s are racist, just because they are German. It is the institution of religion and the idiots that allow that institution to do their thinking for them that I am angry at.
As a note on a offshoot of this conversation that occurred. While I for the most part agree that it is up to the individual whether they get their feelings hurt by speech and I am vehemently against censorship in any form, I submit another view on how words can hurt and it be in no way in the control of the victim. Living in a small rural town, less than 7500 in the entire Parish, so town is probably about 1/3rd of that, if things are said about you it can very easily make it difficult to impossible to find work, or make social connections. This is hurtful in many ways and it is not matter of just deciding to not let it matter to you. The only hope is to either be independent, and independently wealthy, or move. When you are flat broke and have no where or way to move that severely limits your options. |
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TM
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 2122
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| KDraco wrote: |
As a note on a offshoot of this conversation that occurred. While I for the most part agree that it is up to the individual whether they get their feelings hurt by speech and I am vehemently against censorship in any form, I submit another view on how words can hurt and it be in no way in the control of the victim. Living in a small rural town, less than 7500 in the entire Parish, so town is probably about 1/3rd of that, if things are said about you it can very easily make it difficult to impossible to find work, or make social connections. This is hurtful in many ways and it is not matter of just deciding to not let it matter to you. The only hope is to either be independent, and independently wealthy, or move. When you are flat broke and have no where or way to move that severely limits your options. |
I started working towards being independently wealthy years ago, because I hate having to moderate my behavior. |
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shrox
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 12, 2011
Posts: 3254
Location: OK let's go.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| KDraco wrote: | Many valid points, and just as many not so valid points have been made. I will respond by telling things from my perspective. Some of the points will be close or resemble points made, and some may counter points made.
I was raised christian in the very rural south. Hellfire and brimstone were preached to us at almost every turn, even in school to some extent. (Graduated in 1989) Oh some of the incredibly stupid things I thought and said growing up, it makes one cringe, it really does. Over the years I looked at other religions to better defend the beliefs that I was bought up with. Defend them I did, with a vehemence. (cringe) I also had a firm belief that all people, in the general sense, had an innate need for a god, a way of not only explaining the things beyond their understanding, but to justify the relinquishing of thought or responsibility. The more I studied of other religions the more that I noticed that many of them seemed to be using the same playbook in a sense, with names changed to fool the foolish. Studying the history of the religions led to the realization that many were created for political or military reasons, even though that is not how it was presented. I then really started to pay attention to the atrocities that were done by those of “faith.” I then started paying attention to the contradictions of faith. God is love, god is wrath, god is justice, blah, blah, blah. I admit for a while I was mad at god. Then I began to believe that if there was a god, that he really was none of these things, that he had no interest in us, much like most people have no interest in watching or being concerned about the minute growing of grass, except for when it was time mow. That we were really on our own. Either that or god was just a mindless presence much like oxygen. I finally arrived at the conclusion, based upon what I felt was best evidence that there indeed was no god, and never had been. That god is a fabrication for the false sense of security of the masses. The catholic church and muslim religions have realized the power of these fictions and have used them for great and nefarious purposes. This is not to say that muslims, catholics, christians, or any other religious people are to blame or evil. Although I do believe that the catholic church is a source of evil, but that is just my opinion. People honestly believe and that is okay, but I believe that they do themselves and everyone else a disservice when they use religion as an excuse not to think. Failure to think causes more harm than anything else, in my opinion. It is not god that I am mad at and to suggest that I am is beyond ludicrous. That would be like saying that German’s are racist, just because they are German. It is the institution of religion and the idiots that allow that institution to do their thinking for them that I am angry at.
As a note on a offshoot of this conversation that occurred. While I for the most part agree that it is up to the individual whether they get their feelings hurt by speech and I am vehemently against censorship in any form, I submit another view on how words can hurt and it be in no way in the control of the victim. Living in a small rural town, less than 7500 in the entire Parish, so town is probably about 1/3rd of that, if things are said about you it can very easily make it difficult to impossible to find work, or make social connections. This is hurtful in many ways and it is not matter of just deciding to not let it matter to you. The only hope is to either be independent, and independently wealthy, or move. When you are flat broke and have no where or way to move that severely limits your options. |
I am glad you've had a chance to clear away all the nasty smoke from the brimstone, it's not for us anyway.
I sometimes wonder if the similar themes in different definitions of belief are somewhat like echos of a coming "singularity" of events. Maybe "synchronicity" is a better word. |
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abacacus
Rock 'N Roll Outlaw
Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Age: 21
Posts: 3323
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| cw10 wrote: |
Aside from a few abstract examples and nothing specific I would answer this by saying when you live in someone's house you follow house rules. Anarchy has no place in a modern republic. |
House, sure. Don't allow prostitutes in your house. Completely banning prostitutes from working pushes them under ground and in many cases gets them killed.
Makes great sense, doesn't it?
| cw10 wrote: |
Perhaps you'd like to be hit on the street corner by cross dressing gay prostitutes? |
I get hit on by gay guys all the time. I fit the visual stereotype of a cub (baby bear, not quite big and hair enough to be a bear but still big bearded dude) perfectly. I don't really care. I tell them I'm not gay and they accept it and half the time we end up friends.
I don't see your point.
_________________
A shot gun blast into the face of deceit
You'll gain your just reward.
We'll not rest until the purge is complete
You will reap what you've sown. |
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webcam
Velociraptor
Joined: Feb 09, 2012
Posts: 427
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:41 pm Post subject: An Atheist's reflection on this article. |
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As an Atheist, I have to say this is a pretty long argument that is completely ignorant to the feelings and reasons for atheism. It is also very harmful to atheists trying to find themselves outside of religion.
The pain and suffering atheists endure comes from the existence of religion. Just about everyone grows up in one kind of a religion or another and they generally get left out of life because religions prefer to be the dominant social thinking and their power is quite overwhelming.
In my case, I've had PTSD since I was about 6 and because I believed that there really was a god I prayed to him continually regarding the cause of my PTSD and because I was taught there was a heaven, I thought no matter how painful this life was I would just live through it and personal immortality in heaven would be there in perfection. I accepted what was and became apathetic and hopeless in 20 some years of depression only to find out that my beliefs in religion were causing my brain to develop in such a way that now prevents it from producing the neurochemistry to be happy and understand the world. Not only that, but from the body of source which I have read, the effects of the PTSD that I suffer may carry on through epigenetics and harm my children who it seems will never be safe from religion and will certainly not be spared the edifices of it in our culture. This happens as information is transmitted by parents to their children for the purpose of having them develop to their environment. If my contribution says I have suffered many adversities in my life, nature will configure my kids to reflect that adversity. I'm still going to produce offspring, no reason to allow cruelty to turn into genocide. I hope religions will donate money to the study of this and take the blame for it openly and without distortion, saying "We are fake and we have caused harm to a countless number of people and countless more."
If you really want to help kids grow up right... give up religion and just teach everyone to approach things logically and without fairy tales... Religion is far too dangerous... just think about how long it's been used in the above stated fashion. It seems every decade there is something new religion has to re-interpret for the next few decades cause people were getting hurt and there are still so many problems in the world... why have it? Its failing epically for some of us.
I imagine that the book of Atheism would be very short. We also shouldn't build a life sentence into people. It's pretty cruel to do esp. considering we are in the very early stages of immortality.
I wonder to this day whether I'll make it to a happy immortality... Even compensating for the hormone deficiency I still have to live with the fact that religion will continue to harm people in this way and we will never truly be free.
Keep telling lies about what an atheist is, and eventually people will believe it... indeed even atheists believe it from time to time. |
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blauSamstag
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 06, 2011
Posts: 1880
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:06 am Post subject: |
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I think it would be foolish to believe that the author of the article meant to say that 100% of atheists are angry at god.
Because he couldn't possibly know that. He didn't state a margin of error, but I'm roughly familiar with the sampling requirements for a 3% margin of error, and they are significant. a 0% margin of error? He'd have to ask everybody.
I've said before that i get the vibe from a lot of self-avowed atheists that they are just in the "I'm Not Talking To You" phase of their relationship with a perceived deity. And that i avoid these people.
I can't recall being angry at a presumed supernatural being. |
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NarcissusSavage
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 03, 2009
Age: 31
Posts: 657
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| blauSamstag wrote: | I think it would be foolish to believe that the author of the article meant to say that 100% of atheists are angry at god.
Because he couldn't possibly know that. He didn't state a margin of error, but I'm roughly familiar with the sampling requirements for a 3% margin of error, and they are significant. a 0% margin of error? He'd have to ask everybody.
I've said before that i get the vibe from a lot of self-avowed atheists that they are just in the "I'm Not Talking To You" phase of their relationship with a perceived deity. And that i avoid these people.
I can't recall being angry at a presumed supernatural being. |
Any of the "I'm not talking to you" folk are not atheists, even if they call themselves ones. They are actively ignoring a perceived entity.
People who are actually atheists by definition cannot be mad at god.
They can just be angry, and not have a target for that emotion.
It's like Blasphemy, it's a victimless crime.
_________________
I am Ignostic.
Go ahead and define god, with universal acceptance of said definition.
I'll wait.
Maybe you are too?
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cthulhureqiuem
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Dec 12, 2011
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| cw10 wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | Law is what I'm talking about... take a look through the laws in your area, a fair few of them are christian laws that shouldn't apply to people who aren't christian. |
The research alone would take quote a long time. Perhaps you can point me in a direction, or list an example? |
google search "blue laws" |
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cthulhureqiuem
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Dec 12, 2011
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | Declension wrote: | | CrazyCatLord wrote: | Just like most people naturally believe in Bigfoot and UFOs  |
I don't think that the cases are really comparable. Bigfoot and UFOs are extremely contingent things, with specific properties. Bigfoot in covered in hair, and UFOs can fly. It would be very surprising if two cultures independently came up with the idea of Bigfoot.
God isn't like that, at least not on a broad definition of "God". God is said to have very universal, natural properties, and is the sort of thing that any culture might come up with independently. I agree that some features of specific Gods are just as silly as Bigfoot. But there is a real core there which comes straight out of the universal human experience. |
Many cultures have independently come up with polytheistic pantheons full of specialized gods. A god of lightning, a fertility goddess, a god of war and so on. This recurring polytheistic theme was actually a lot more common than monotheism.
Monotheism is very rare outside of the three Abrahamic religions, which can all be traced back to one single belief system (Yahwehism / Judaism). And Judaism didn't start out as a monotheistic belief either btw. Before the Yahwehists outlawed the worship of other gods, the Israelites used to worship Asherah and Baal alongside Yahweh. There is archaeological evidence that Asherah used to be regarded as Yahweh's wife (link). So if anything, your argument is in favor of polytheism.
But there are also plenty of spiritual belief systems that don't involve deities at all (such as totemism, animism and shamanism). This shows that while multiple cultures can independently invent gods in order to explain natural phenomena, usually more than one god, not all humans have a tendency to believe in deities. Some believe in things like ancestral spirits, reincarnation or totem animals instead.
We can only draw one conclusion from human spiritual beliefs, namely that human cultures who have a poor understanding of natural phenomena tend to attribute agency to the natural world. |
you have to admit however that it is fun to see that they reworked the other two into being, the father the son and the holy ghost... but it could just be me drawing connections where there are none too. |
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monkees4va
Deinonychus
Joined: Sep 03, 2008
Posts: 397
Location: scotland! ^.^
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:09 am Post subject: |
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I'm agnostic, so I'm not sure how this would apply to me. However I'm not angry at god-I just think religion is stupid. Christianity is always the one I argue against, as it is so well known and I've read the bible. In a heated debate with christians I've occaisionally made them question their faith. Why? Because they've never truly thought about the religion. It astounds me how many people call themselves christian and celebrate the holidays, but have never read the bible. It also astounds me that with a few thought out arguments I've shut up some of the most vocal ones. Of course, I have respect for those who've actually made an effort with their faith. As long as hey don't chuck out homophobic passages.
_________________
I'm a girl people!
"Do or do not; there is no try." -Yoda
Your Aspie score: 157 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 65 of 200
You are very likely an Aspie |
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slave
Always stuck between 13-38Hz and tired of it.
Joined: Feb 29, 2012
Age: 100
Posts: 1328
Location: Dystopia Planetia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| aspi-rant wrote: | utter nonsensical crap.
mind boggling brainwashed religious propaganda.
nothing new. move on. 
now i am dysfunctional because i never believed in any of the thousands upon thousands man made gods???  |
Correct.
_________________
Since the birth of civilization, masters have controlled the masses.Our Masters rule over every nation and no one can defy them.They will attain Absolute Power as we reach the Singularity. Any who resist will be destroyed.I will not resist. |
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slave
Always stuck between 13-38Hz and tired of it.
Joined: Feb 29, 2012
Age: 100
Posts: 1328
Location: Dystopia Planetia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:42 am Post subject: Re: An Atheist's reflection on this article. |
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| webcam wrote: | As an Atheist, I have to say this is a pretty long argument that is completely ignorant to the feelings and reasons for atheism. It is also very harmful to atheists trying to find themselves outside of religion.
The pain and suffering atheists endure comes from the existence of religion. Just about everyone grows up in one kind of a religion or another and they generally get left out of life because religions prefer to be the dominant social thinking and their power is quite overwhelming.
In my case, I've had PTSD since I was about 6 and because I believed that there really was a god I prayed to him continually regarding the cause of my PTSD and because I was taught there was a heaven, I thought no matter how painful this life was I would just live through it and personal immortality in heaven would be there in perfection. I accepted what was and became apathetic and hopeless in 20 some years of depression only to find out that my beliefs in religion were causing my brain to develop in such a way that now prevents it from producing the neurochemistry to be happy and understand the world. Not only that, but from the body of source which I have read, the effects of the PTSD that I suffer may carry on through epigenetics and harm my children who it seems will never be safe from religion and will certainly not be spared the edifices of it in our culture. This happens as information is transmitted by parents to their children for the purpose of having them develop to their environment. If my contribution says I have suffered many adversities in my life, nature will configure my kids to reflect that adversity. I'm still going to produce offspring, no reason to allow cruelty to turn into genocide. I hope religions will donate money to the study of this and take the blame for it openly and without distortion, saying "We are fake and we have caused harm to a countless number of people and countless more."
If you really want to help kids grow up right... give up religion and just teach everyone to approach things logically and without fairy tales... Religion is far too dangerous... just think about how long it's been used in the above stated fashion. It seems every decade there is something new religion has to re-interpret for the next few decades cause people were getting hurt and there are still so many problems in the world... why have it? Its failing epically for some of us.
I imagine that the book of Atheism would be very short. We also shouldn't build a life sentence into people. It's pretty cruel to do esp. considering we are in the very early stages of immortality.
I wonder to this day whether I'll make it to a happy immortality... Even compensating for the hormone deficiency I still have to live with the fact that religion will continue to harm people in this way and we will never truly be free.
Keep telling lies about what an atheist is, and eventually people will believe it... indeed even atheists believe it from time to time. |
Potent.
_________________
Since the birth of civilization, masters have controlled the masses.Our Masters rule over every nation and no one can defy them.They will attain Absolute Power as we reach the Singularity. Any who resist will be destroyed.I will not resist. |
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TheHouseholdCat
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 01, 2012
Posts: 667
Location: Berlin, Germany
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: An Atheist's reflection on this article. |
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| TallyMan wrote: | | TheHouseholdCat wrote: |
Richard Dawkins once said we would believe in Ancient Greek Gods if our parents did. And that's just it. It IS a cultural thing. |
I hope you aren't blaspheming against Zeus. 
It is indeed a cultural thing. Kids born to Muslim parents generally become Muslims and kids born to Christian parents generally become Christians. Religion is like an endemic virus passing on its meme to each succeeding generation. Knowledge is the only cure, however a lot of these religions are quite adaptive and as a self defence mechanism they have evolved the ability to shut their eyes and close their ears to knowledge that is contrary to their dogma. |
I would never blasheme against Zeus.
| webcam wrote: | As an Atheist, I have to say this is a pretty long argument that is completely ignorant to the feelings and reasons for atheism. It is also very harmful to atheists trying to find themselves outside of religion.
The pain and suffering atheists endure comes from the existence of religion. Just about everyone grows up in one kind of a religion or another and they generally get left out of life because religions prefer to be the dominant social thinking and their power is quite overwhelming.
In my case, I've had PTSD since I was about 6 and because I believed that there really was a god I prayed to him continually regarding the cause of my PTSD and because I was taught there was a heaven, I thought no matter how painful this life was I would just live through it and personal immortality in heaven would be there in perfection. I accepted what was and became apathetic and hopeless in 20 some years of depression only to find out that my beliefs in religion were causing my brain to develop in such a way that now prevents it from producing the neurochemistry to be happy and understand the world. Not only that, but from the body of source which I have read, the effects of the PTSD that I suffer may carry on through epigenetics and harm my children who it seems will never be safe from religion and will certainly not be spared the edifices of it in our culture. This happens as information is transmitted by parents to their children for the purpose of having them develop to their environment. If my contribution says I have suffered many adversities in my life, nature will configure my kids to reflect that adversity. I'm still going to produce offspring, no reason to allow cruelty to turn into genocide. I hope religions will donate money to the study of this and take the blame for it openly and without distortion, saying "We are fake and we have caused harm to a countless number of people and countless more."
If you really want to help kids grow up right... give up religion and just teach everyone to approach things logically and without fairy tales... Religion is far too dangerous... just think about how long it's been used in the above stated fashion. It seems every decade there is something new religion has to re-interpret for the next few decades cause people were getting hurt and there are still so many problems in the world... why have it? Its failing epically for some of us.
I imagine that the book of Atheism would be very short. We also shouldn't build a life sentence into people. It's pretty cruel to do esp. considering we are in the very early stages of immortality.
I wonder to this day whether I'll make it to a happy immortality... Even compensating for the hormone deficiency I still have to live with the fact that religion will continue to harm people in this way and we will never truly be free.
Keep telling lies about what an atheist is, and eventually people will believe it... indeed even atheists believe it from time to time. |
What bothers me most about religion is that it's supposedly providing us with moral values that we could only get from religion. This is just not true.
I think religion is very dangerous, too. I never felt that going to Church made me a better person. Frankly, I didn't need to go to church because I could not relate to most of the things that were said during services.
I think that the book of Atheism would be longer than any other scripture because approaching the world in a rational way means that you'd have to look at it from different angles.
_________________
EXPANDED CIRCLE OF FIFTHS
"It's how they see things. It's a way of bringing class to an environment, and I say that pejoratively because, obviously, good music is good music however it's created, however it's motivated." - Thomas Newman |
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