mglosenger
Velociraptor
Joined: Aug 20, 2011
Age: 140
Posts: 445
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 Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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For me, the thing about being entirely optimistic is that when things don't work out the way I expect, I lose all faith in optimism and would rather not do anything. It's too painful to be open-hearted and yet still fail utterly with no one seeming to particularly care.
I simply don't belong here ('Earth'). It's the only explanation that makes any sense. |
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Zinnel
Velociraptor
Joined: Sep 03, 2011
Age: 22
Posts: 405
Location: Missouri, USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Comp_Geek_573 wrote: | I hate, hate, hate, HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE the idea of being a "pick-up artist." To the point that I won't listen to anything with the PUA label. To me, "pick-up artist" implies lying about who you are, how much you make, etc. with the primary goal of getting someone to sleep with you.
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I agree, but I don't think that is what wolfheart is trying to say you should be.
Honestly, it's ok if rejection effects you and makes you feel bad. Hell even if ruins your day thats perfectly fine, the key is not letting it ruin the next day or the day after that.
Now will wolfheart's advice get you a girlfriend, probably not.
What his advice does is fix any self inflicting reasons why a girl doesn't want a relationship with you. It doesn't make you more desirable, just makes it less likely for you to be your own worst enemy.
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keep an open mind but not so open your brain falls out
Last edited by Zinnel on Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ToadOfSteel
unlovable
Joined: Sep 24, 2007
Age: 25
Posts: 6716
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| MXH wrote: | | Thom_Fuleri wrote: | | ToadOfSteel wrote: | | MXH wrote: | | again wolfheart, I like you are trying to help people here but this is just a bit too out there in optimism land. Ive been trying this out for many years to no avail. |
I have to agree with this. Despite what I've said above, I have no doubt that wolfheart has the best of intentions. It's just that some of these things are impossible to do for some of us... |
Ah, the usual two voices of dissent. This is exactly the sort of thing the OP is talking about - feedback loops, patterns of behaviour. "It won't work because it never has before." You've gone meta - not only have you convinced yourselves that every effort is going to fail (thus poisoning it before you start) but you've even convinced yourselves that any attempt to change this pattern is going to fail!
Sirs, I must applaud you. This is taking pessimism to the point of nihilism.
I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. This would be like trying to knock down a wall by throwing lemon cheesecake at it. No matter how lemony sweet the cheesecake, that wall isn't going to budge. Instead, I'll suggest something else - learn to love failure. Hey, if you're going to live with it all your life anyway, you may as well enjoy it. Be a failure, but be a spectacular one. Don't just get rejected - aim high. Get rejected by someone really impressive, have a friend photograph the whole thing, then parade your failure on Facebook. Getting turned down by a celebrity is more than many ever manage. You've got nothing to lose.
If you find the idea of making an arse of yourself in this fashion bothers you, then you've not hit bottom yet. Keep diving, you'll get there soon. You're already convinced you're a failure so why should you be embarrassed about it? Isn't it obvious already to you and everyone else? Or has some corner of your persona not yet given up?
Confidence is worrying about doing something scary, and doing it anyway. On the far side of self-hatred and fear there is anti-confidence, where you don't worry about anything because you no longer care. |
and the usual voice of having no new or even any type of advice besides keep doing whats not working. You know the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Then again I must salute you, otherwise I wouldnt have people to ridicule.
No but its more than that, you feel it makes you bigger than me. You bring yourself to feast on my (or atleast what you believe to be) broken ego. Proof you ask? You posted no real advice. You simply posted to make yourself seem better or others seem worse. I believe thios is what the job of a good mother was supposed to be. Teach you things like "if you have nothing nice to say then shut the f**k up" and so forth. Ohh well. It doesnt suffice to you. Youll just end up as all the other assclowns of the internet, looking for another dead or dying animal on which to prey. The scum of this litter. |
Wait, what happened? I thought Thom was one of the nice people on this forum... I'm not dissenting against wolfheart, like I said he always acts in good faith. So does Thom, which is why i'm fairly confused at this point as to why he's attacking me for disagreeing.
My issue is that my life has been nothing but failure. Bitter, abysmal failure at that. It's not the kind of thing you can learn to like. I want to be successful, but success eludes me at every turn. Most people have some measure of success. I don't. You can only endure that so long before your outlook changes. You can't breed confidence from nothing. |
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Zinnel
Velociraptor
Joined: Sep 03, 2011
Age: 22
Posts: 405
Location: Missouri, USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| ToadOfSteel wrote: | | You can't breed confidence from nothing. |
We're living in an era were we can pull energy out of a vacuum, and getting closer to making it out of nothing.
If science can do that, then surely the human spirit is capable of making confidence out of nothing.
For example, read or watch something that makes you laugh, while laughing remember all the failures you've had and how it made you feel so horrible. Why? Because if you can laugh now it means you've had the strength to carring on, and thats something to be proud of and have confidence in. Be confident in the fact that no matter how many times you've failed, you still carry on.
Why should you be proud? Because not everyone experiences the same amount of failure in their life, nobody does. So if you have really had that much failure in your life, and you can still carry on. It means you have a strength that very few people have and while it may not be visiable its still there. 
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keep an open mind but not so open your brain falls out
Last edited by Zinnel on Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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1000Knives
It's not difficult if you know how.
Joined: Jul 09, 2011
Age: 22
Posts: 4717
Location: CT, USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| Wolfheart wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | I think I'll just not look for a relationship...that seems a bit less stressful. |
That's a personal preference but don't you think that overall you would be happier if you shared your life with someone? |
That's a question of "the hell I know" vs "the hell I don't know" sometimes. For me it's not so much that I desire a relationship, so much as other people judge me for not being in one. I do crush pretty hard, though, but my desire just to have a relationship for the sake of a relationship alone isn't terribly high. It's a foolish thought to have someone "complete" you like that. But, it's an appealing one. Foolish, but appealing.
One last point, regarding failure, I know now not to pass up opportunities put in front of you, and it's better to suffer a few minutes of awkwardness that'll work out and end one way or the other, than face your life in regret, which I now face everyday. Regret is probably the worst emotion around.
I just find it hard to...bother. Who cares.
I don't mean to refute your post, after all, no tries, no results, but uh, yeah...
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Too kawaii to live...
Too sugoi to die! |
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mds_02
Skank
Joined: Sep 10, 2011
Posts: 1970
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| MXH wrote: | | Thom_Fuleri wrote: | | ToadOfSteel wrote: | | MXH wrote: | | again wolfheart, I like you are trying to help people here but this is just a bit too out there in optimism land. Ive been trying this out for many years to no avail. |
I have to agree with this. Despite what I've said above, I have no doubt that wolfheart has the best of intentions. It's just that some of these things are impossible to do for some of us... |
Ah, the usual two voices of dissent. This is exactly the sort of thing the OP is talking about - feedback loops, patterns of behaviour. "It won't work because it never has before." You've gone meta - not only have you convinced yourselves that every effort is going to fail (thus poisoning it before you start) but you've even convinced yourselves that any attempt to change this pattern is going to fail!
Sirs, I must applaud you. This is taking pessimism to the point of nihilism.
I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. This would be like trying to knock down a wall by throwing lemon cheesecake at it. No matter how lemony sweet the cheesecake, that wall isn't going to budge. Instead, I'll suggest something else - learn to love failure. Hey, if you're going to live with it all your life anyway, you may as well enjoy it. Be a failure, but be a spectacular one. Don't just get rejected - aim high. Get rejected by someone really impressive, have a friend photograph the whole thing, then parade your failure on Facebook. Getting turned down by a celebrity is more than many ever manage. You've got nothing to lose.
If you find the idea of making an arse of yourself in this fashion bothers you, then you've not hit bottom yet. Keep diving, you'll get there soon. You're already convinced you're a failure so why should you be embarrassed about it? Isn't it obvious already to you and everyone else? Or has some corner of your persona not yet given up?
Confidence is worrying about doing something scary, and doing it anyway. On the far side of self-hatred and fear there is anti-confidence, where you don't worry about anything because you no longer care. |
and the usual voice of having no new or even any type of advice besides keep doing whats not working. You know the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Then again I must salute you, otherwise I wouldnt have people to ridicule.
No but its more than that, you feel it makes you bigger than me. You bring yourself to feast on my (or atleast what you believe to be) broken ego. Proof you ask? You posted no real advice. You simply posted to make yourself seem better or others seem worse. I believe thios is what the job of a good mother was supposed to be. Teach you things like "if you have nothing nice to say then shut the f**k up" and so forth. Ohh well. It doesnt suffice to you. Youll just end up as all the other assclowns of the internet, looking for another dead or dying animal on which to prey. The scum of this litter. |
If that is the case, if your situation is as hopeless as you think it is, then why not just say to yourself "okay, this advice is directed toward those who actually have a chance and, as such, is not applicable to me" and then just ignore the thread? Why post in the L&D section at all?
All anyone can do is tell you what worked for them. I don't think it's coincidence that people keep giving the same advice. I mean, if you have any better advice to give, then let's hear it.
Either way, attacking people who are, whether you believe it or not, trying to help only makes you look like an ass. |
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21990
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:29 am Post subject: |
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keep it civil, people. it's not acceptable to personally attack each other no matter how frustrated you are getting.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21990
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| The-Raven wrote: | | Wolfheart wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | I think I'll just not look for a relationship...that seems a bit less stressful. |
That's a personal preference but don't you think that overall you would be happier if you shared your life with someone? |
I think NTs get a lot out of having a relationship as they really like company and being with people and interacting, they find it very soothing and energizing, for example lots of NTs Ive met relax by chatting on the phone (???) even after work!
However lots of aspies do not like company and interacting and find it draining and stressful, they dont like their things moved or someone interrupting their routine, so I think they get less benefit out of a relationship and sharing their life with someone.
I think remaining alone should be viewed as a valid life choice for a lot of aspies and accepted that it makes them happier over all than all the effort and struggle that goes into the maintenance of a relationship (which for a lot of aspies only benefit is sex 'on tap' anyway).
I think relationships make some people happy but by no means are they right for all people. |
i agree. relationships don't work for everyone, and even the people who end up involved with someone could end up split-up and therefore alone anyways.
i think it's most important to do what works for one's own self, and ignore what society is pushing on us to do. i would definitely never say that everyone should seek a relationship, or that everyone would be suited to dating, because is just isn't the case.
| Wolfheart wrote: | | I agree that's a personal preference and I can respect that but even without the sex, don't you ever want someone you can share your responsibilities, goals, dreams, burdens and struggles with? |
friends, family, acquaintances, coworkers... many people can fulfill that role.
| Trigas wrote: | | It's not an impossible task. Yes, I'll agree it can be more difficult for some of us but not impossible. |
for some people, it is honestly just too hard. the cost to benefit ratio makes it hardly worth it. i think that making an active decision to be alone is a brave and healthy choice for many people. there are some people out there who are IN relationships who would be better off without it, not just people who have faced a lot of rejection.
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Maerlyn138
Velociraptor
Joined: Nov 03, 2005
Age: 41
Posts: 476
Location: The Island of Misfit Toys
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:33 am Post subject: |
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I've been married twice! See if you can guess why I am not still married to either? And why I won't do it again. I misinterpret social cues so badly now, having been married for a total of 10 years, that I have no idea any more on what to do. I mean, I understand social cues when someone says hey "if she looks at your mouth she's thinking about kissing you" or "if she mirrors you actions to some degree, that means she interested", but I am just too overwealmed. If gets so that is all I am looking for are these trained cues, it does nothing to help me because i am overanalysing on the spot and missing the other stuff. I have been through a lot, and the thought of having to absorb still more embarrassement just to get laid, or worse start a lasting relationship, is just not worth it to me.
These are my experiences, your results may vary.
I do appreciate the pep-talk though Wolf! |
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Trigas
A bit crazy
Joined: Jul 14, 2011
Age: 20
Posts: 4143
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:40 am Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | Trigas wrote: | | It's not an impossible task. Yes, I'll agree it can be more difficult for some of us but not impossible. |
for some people, it is honestly just too hard. the cost to benefit ratio makes it hardly worth it. i think that making an active decision to be alone is a brave and healthy choice for many people. there are some people out there who are IN relationships who would be better off without it, not just people who have faced a lot of rejection. |
But unfortunately those people who are alone by choice and are satisfied with that lifestyle choice aren't the ones that constantly moan and groan on the forums about these sorts of problems. I still can't believe that it is ever impossible to obtain, there are so many different people in this world it seems highly improbable that even a select few individuals would be incompatible. But some people are better off just alone and not with someone to which they would just drag down with their problems.
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All fantasy should have a solid base in reality. |
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The_Face_of_Boo
A savage
Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Age: 31
Posts: 9647
Location: Beirut ,Lebanon
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I agree. relationships don't work for everyone, and even the people who end up involved with someone could end up split-up and therefore alone anyways.
i think it's most important to do what works for one's own self, and ignore what society is pushing on us to do. i would definitely never say that everyone should seek a relationship, or that everyone would be suited to dating, because is just isn't the case. |
Maybe.... but keep in mind that those people (those who are 'naturally' not suited for relationships) do also have sexual and intimacy needs like the others. |
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mv
Protector of the Realm
Joined: Jun 18, 2010
Posts: 3131
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| The_Face_of_Boo wrote: | | Quote: | I agree. relationships don't work for everyone, and even the people who end up involved with someone could end up split-up and therefore alone anyways.
i think it's most important to do what works for one's own self, and ignore what society is pushing on us to do. i would definitely never say that everyone should seek a relationship, or that everyone would be suited to dating, because is just isn't the case. |
Maybe.... but keep in mind that those people (those who are 'naturally' not suited for relationships) do also have sexual and intimacy needs like the others. |
I've got to say, I'm leaning toward The-Raven and hyperlexian in this thread, theirs are the most sage and compassionate ways of looking at my temperament and particular situation. But I think Boo brings up a good point, too. I most assuredly still have sexual intimacy needs, but I've chosen not to fulfill them because of how difficult it is for me to be in a relationship (and I won't have casual intimacy). I do worry about whether I'm denying myself something healthy, whether I am poisoning myself by not being able to engage in even casual intimate situations. It's just... I've found the casual situations to be poisonous in other ways.
Weird tangent, sorry. |
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MXH
TomCat
Joined: Jul 29, 2010
Age: 22
Posts: 12686
Location: Here i stand and face the rain
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| mds_02 wrote: | If that is the case, if your situation is as hopeless as you think it is, then why not just say to yourself "okay, this advice is directed toward those who actually have a chance and, as such, is not applicable to me" and then just ignore the thread? Why post in the L&D section at all?
All anyone can do is tell you what worked for them. I don't think it's coincidence that people keep giving the same advice. I mean, if you have any better advice to give, then let's hear it.
Either way, attacking people who are, whether you believe it or not, trying to help only makes you look like an ass. |
Why do I post here? In the hopes that I can stop people preaching the same advice for everyone and we can get some actual help. The more ideas we have around the better it will be for all. Now there is no need to come out and be billy bad butt and put others down just cause you feel so without even bothering to read into their messages. Either that or youre not capable of reading into their messages which then i would recommend not talking.
Exactly, but when its just the same exact advice in every single thread i dont think it will help people with issues outside of this area. With great advice like "get some confidence" as if its something you can buy in walmart. And then proceed to say that people will read through fake confidence. Ohh well f**k! So you mean the only way to obtain what i need is by having what i need? Thats not advice, thats a verbal headache.
And making stupid comments to someone who is trying to bring new ideas into the table because youre too stubborn to do anything but repeat the same things that have failed makes you look like an insane person. No wait, that is the definition of insane.
Last edited by MXH on Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MXH
TomCat
Joined: Jul 29, 2010
Age: 22
Posts: 12686
Location: Here i stand and face the rain
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Trigas wrote: |
But unfortunately those people who are alone by choice and are satisfied with that lifestyle choice aren't the ones that constantly moan and groan on the forums about these sorts of problems. I still can't believe that it is ever impossible to obtain, there are so many different people in this world it seems highly improbable that even a select few individuals would be incompatible. But some people are better off just alone and not with someone to which they would just drag down with their problems. |
The issue is not compatibility, but rather someone giving you the chance to see if you are compatible. |
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Wolfheart
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 18, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 2971
Location: Kent, England
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: | Wolfheart, I commend you for putting together this great, helpful list.
This part (quoted) I'm not sure about, at least not for me. I've been in relationships, and ideally, yes, this is exactly what you'd get out of a relationship as well as bring this to a relationship for your partner.
I've never been able to sustain a relationship except by completely subsuming my real self. It's the only way to get around my "weirdness". I give it my all in the name of usual relationship compromise, and it inevitably still blows up.
I'm sure it's a matter of finding the right person, but I get so very, very few chances. Even as a relatively attractive woman!
Nevertheless, I do think you have exactly the right approach in what you've said. I just don't think it's possible, in every case, to elucidate and figure these steps out, on an individual basis. That's what the different wiring means.
Additionally, for people like me, the relationship just seems like way too much work for what you get in return. It is SO hard to do. Yes, the companionship can be nice, the idea that someone has your back always is sublime, but something always suffers (either the sex sucks, or the misunderstanding of the nature of the relationship, or having to deal with their relative weaknesses or whatever) and the difficulty overcomes the benefit.
I know, I sound like a psycho, but I really have tried to do it "their" way. It simply does not work for me. |
Thanks, I'm glad you found it to be a positive post. I don't think there's such thing as a perfect relationship but I think you can find a balance where the positives can outweigh the negatives with enough mutual understanding and acceptance.
I'm sure some people are more suited to leading an independent lifestyle where they don't have to worry about the responsibilities of others and I can understand that, I'm not saying that everyone has to find social acceptability or fulfilment from a relationship, there are other means of achieving it but I still think the majority of people have a biological need for sex and love and a desire to interrelate as Boo stated above. It doesn't hurt to stay open to the possibility that you could potentially be happy with a partner but if you don't think so, I can completely respect that. I think it's about having the understanding to be able to discern what is best for you and overall what makes you feel better and more comfortable as a person. |
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