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Sokar
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jul 29, 2010
Age: 37
Posts: 51
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 Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| You've got your knickers in a knot over circumscision, fair enough. But you're completely missing the fact that it's alright for a rabbi to suck on a baby's penis, so long as he has just circumscised him. |
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heavenlyabyss
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 10, 2011
Posts: 530
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:05 am Post subject: |
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http://www.icgi.org/2010/04/infant-circumcision-causes-100-deaths-each-year-in-us/
I guess it is not an isolated case. This article states that 100 deaths a year are caused by circumcision on infants....
Hmm, I suppose proportion-wise this is not a large percentage, but the practice does some pretty barbaric to me. It's hard to justify the procedure when there is even a small chance of death if you ask me. I mean the baby is literally scarred for life and has no say in it.
I'm being a little dramatic, I was circumcised and I really don't care because at least I am a live. But it kind of makes me wonder what my parents were thinking. |
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jojobean
sacred clown
Joined: Aug 13, 2009
Posts: 3341
Location: In Georgia sipping a virgin pina' colada while the rest of the world is drunk
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:35 am Post subject: Re: Infant's death at Maimonides Hospital linked to circumci |
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| snapcap wrote: | Infant's death at Maimonides Hospital linked to circumcision
| Quote: | | The cause of death was listed as “disseminated herpes simplex virus Type 1, complicating ritual circumcision with oral suction.” |
This is a practice that needs to go. Where's the benefit? And what's the draw back. A completely bat-sh** procedure? |
oral suction....they gave the infant a blow job and that is how he got herpes??
other than that, I heard that there are medical reasons for circumcision, as far as my knowlege on it, I dont know enough about the studies to comment on whether or not they are legit or biased.
But I do see one flaw, the study comparing Jews to non-Jews as far as cancer goes. Cancer tends to run in families, unless a person comes in contact with a powerful carcigen like abestos. The Jewish religion is mostly consisted of people born into Jewish families, there are only a small number of converts to Judaism, except those by marriage.
So I can see a possible error there.
As for the rest, I dont know enough about the studies.
However, my logic tells me that if it is healther to remove a part of the body, wouldn't evolution have taken care of that??
Jojo
_________________
All art is a kind of confession, more or less oblique. All artists, if they are to survive, are forced, at last, to tell the whole story; to vomit the anguish up.
-James Baldwin |
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snapcap
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 13, 2011
Age: 31
Posts: 2328
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| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Infant's death at Maimonides Hospital linked to circumci |
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| jojobean wrote: |
However, my logic tells me that if it is healther to remove a part of the body, wouldn't evolution have taken care of that??
Jojo |
Maybe it means they feel there was a flaw in God's design.
Oh you religious people! |
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snapcap
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 13, 2011
Age: 31
Posts: 2328
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:23 am Post subject: |
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Two Babies Sickened by Circumcision Rite
| Quote: | Two Jewish infants in New Jersey were recently infected with — but survived — a herpes virus attributed to their ritual circumcisers’ use of an oral suctioning technique that is said to have caused the death of an infant in New York in September.
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Why |
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Jacoby
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 11, 2007
Posts: 4003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| This is so barbaric. There are certain things that you shouldn't be allowed to do your kids, I don't care what your religions says. |
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CrazyCatLord
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 25, 2011
Posts: 2177
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | Circumcision promotes health. |
No.
This thread is about an infant who died after his genitals were mutilated. It is hardly the place to spout this kind of nonsense. Needless infant genital mutilation is indefensible. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29275
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | ruveyn wrote: | | Circumcision promotes health. |
No.
This thread is about an infant who died after his genitals were mutilated. It is hardly the place to spout this kind of nonsense. Needless infant genital mutilation is indefensible. |
No more mutilation than the removal of the tonsils. The area under the foreskin a region of filth and disease. Circumcised males have a low rate of penile cancer and are less susceptable to AIDS.
It is a health measure, not mutilation. A clean tool is a healthy tool and a healthy tool is a happy tool.
ruveyn |
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Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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Whenever this topic comes up, I always wonder which male commenters are circumcised. I strongly suspect that there is a very high correlation between being circumcised and defending circumcision. I have some proxy evidence for this, which is that Americans tend to defend it and non-Americans tend to denounce it.
It's kind of like how kids will pick a side in the "console wars" based on whichever console their mum bought them for Christmas.
But there's an asymmetry that reveals who is right. How many uncircumcised adults choose to circumcise themselves for medical reasons? How many circumcised adults feel bitter and undergo restoration therapy? Which set is larger? |
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MrXxx
Moderator/Enigmatus Paradoxius
Joined: May 12, 2010
Posts: 5678
Location: New England
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Declension wrote: | Whenever this topic comes up, I always wonder which male commenters are circumcised. I strongly suspect that there is a very high correlation between being circumcised and defending circumcision. I have some proxy evidence for this, which is that Americans tend to defend it and non-Americans tend to denounce it.
It's kind of like how kids will pick a side in the "console wars" based on whichever console their mum bought them for Christmas.
But there's an asymmetry that reveals who is right. How many uncircumcised adults choose to circumcise themselves for medical reasons? How many circumcised adults feel bitter and undergo restoration therapy? Which set is larger? |
A topic I've stayed away from for a long time, because I've never been sure how comfortable I am talking about this. I'm not very comfortable, but here goes, finally...
I was not circumcised at birth. At the age of twenty six, due to complications that would not have happened had I been, I was. What I went through because of it being done as an adult is not something I would ever wish on my kids, so all three of them were circumcised at birth. If you think it's barbaric and painful at birth, try having to have it done as an adult. I'd bet you my last dollar you'd change your mind. It was far more traumatic and painful as an adult than it was for my kids. As an adult, there is pain for weeks afterward that is bad enough to warrant the use of powerful narcotics (I was utterly useless for at least two weeks, and had extreme recurring pain for at least eight weeks ~ infants heal much faster than that). Infants general heal from circumcisions completely within seven to ten days. Adults take seven to ten WEEKS. In the meantime, every night something happens to all adult males several times a night (look it up) that pulls very nastily on the sutures. Extremely painful! Forget about getting any real sleep for several weeks. The risk of infection from the operation is also far higher in adults than in infants.
What happened to me, and all of the causes for others that might end up having to have it done as adults, may be rare, but the procedure done at birth is far better than having to have it done later. No, it won't prevent every disease that's out there, but it DOES prevent many problems that wouldn't occur if it is done at birth. It would have prevented mine, and I wish like hell my parents had known. My father, who was the one who initially convinced my mother not to have it done, regretted that decision 26 years later enough to pay for the operation himself. He wishes now that he had had it done at birth, and 100% supported our decision to have it done to his grandchildren.
If it is done properly, with the right equipment, in a sterile environment, it is not barbaric at all. Certainly not as barbaric as invasive operations. It's a very simple procedure, and much MUCH easier to care for on infants than adults.
I'm certain a lot of people won't agree with me. I don't care. I've been through it as an adult. If you had, you might feel as I do that the procedure isn't as bad as so many would have you believe. It's certainly nowhere near a bad as going through it later.
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MrXxx is taking a long sabbatical, and no longer moderating. |
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Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| MrXxx wrote: | | I was not circumcised at birth. At the age of twenty six, due to complications that would not have happened had I been, I was. What I went through because of it being done as an adult is not something I would ever wish on my kids, so all three of them were circumcised at birth. If you think it's barbaric and painful at birth, try having to have it done as an adult. I'd bet you my last dollar you'd change your mind. It was far more traumatic and painful as an adult than it was for my kids. As an adult, there is pain for weeks afterward that is bad enough to warrant the use of powerful narcotics (I was utterly useless for at least two weeks, and had extreme recurring pain for at least eight weeks ~ infants heal much faster than that). Infants general heal from circumcisions completely within seven to ten days. Adults take seven to ten WEEKS. In the meantime, every night something happens to all adult males several times a night (look it up) that pulls very nastily on the sutures. Extremely painful! Forget about getting any real sleep for several weeks. The risk of infection from the operation is also far higher in adults than in infants. |
Thank you for sharing! It's nice to meet a real person who fits the description of a thought experiment. It reminds me that these issues really are important.
But I still don't quite buy it. If I had cancer in my left earlobe, and went through a traumatic experience as a result, I would not remove the left earlobes of all of my children. More to the point, I don't think society would let me do it even if I wanted to! Your decision only makes sense in a context where circumcision is already considered a reasonable thing to do. |
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webcam
Velociraptor
Joined: Feb 09, 2012
Posts: 427
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Infant's death at Maimonides Hospital linked to circumci |
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| Sokar wrote: | | snapcap wrote: |
| Quote: | | The cause of death was listed as “disseminated herpes simplex virus Type 1, complicating ritual circumcision with oral suction.” |
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I'm sorry, but is nobody else a little concerned by this quote? It sounds a little... wrong. Actually, it sounds a lot wrong. Very wrong.
Also, circumscision has been shown to reduce the risk of contracting HIV in groups where condoms are economically or culturally not an option (Africa). Even a tiny reduction in the spread of HIV would have a huge impact in Africa, and probably other places as well. |
I can't see how removing the foreskin makes one less vulnerable to pathogens... If anything being circumcised makes one more likely to contract a pathogen as there is less skin to stretch and therefore more damage during use...
In other threads I've posted my opinions on various aspects that medical science seems to ignore. For one, the nerve cells in the foreskin are beneficial for healthy reproduction and produce chemistry that supports higher volume ejaculation. One another note the foreskin is probably the most dense cluster of nerve cells outside the brain and could even promote mental health. I'd really like to see some studies done using this logic.
I certainly don't think anyone in an autist family should be circumcised or anyone for that matter. Biology has endowed us with foreskin for a reason even if we don't understand it. It's like how the spleen and tonsils have at times been thought of as unnecessary and it was later found out that they are very important. |
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hanyo
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 01, 2011
Posts: 3414
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: Infant's death at Maimonides Hospital linked to circumci |
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| jojobean wrote: |
oral suction....they gave the infant a blow job and that is how he got herpes?? |
Apparently so from what I looked up online. I thought that didn't sound right but I had to look it up to know if that meant what I thought it meant. |
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Feralucce
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 25, 2012
Age: 39
Posts: 712
Location: New Orleans, LA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | ruveyn wrote: | | Circumcision promotes health. |
No.
This thread is about an infant who died after his genitals were mutilated. It is hardly the place to spout this kind of nonsense. Needless infant genital mutilation is indefensible. |
1) Address people with respect please. You may disagree, but calling their opinion (which is what is still currently taught in schools, btw) "nonsense" is not respectful in any sense of the word.
2) The subject is currently under debate with the american medical association.
3) The case in question is not typical of hospital circumcisions at all. This is a Jewish tradition called the metzitzah b'peh. The mohel in this case had simplex 1 (oral herpes) and it killed the baby.
4) According to AMA literature currently available: "There is some evidence that circumcision has health benefits, including:
A decreased risk of urinary tract infections.
A reduced risk of sexually transmitted diseases in men.
Protection against penile cancer and a reduced risk of cervical cancer in female sex partners.
Prevention of balanitis (inflammation of the glans) and balanoposthitis (inflammation of the glans and foreskin).
Prevention of phimosis (the inability to retract the foreskin) and paraphimosis (the inability to return the foreskin to its original location).
Circumcision also makes it easier to keep the end of the penis clean.
Since our doctors state that there are health and hygiene benefits to it, I don't think that any of us are qualified to call it nonsense.
Further, it is a religious issue (especially in this case) and as such, is not our business.
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