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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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 Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| Raptor wrote: | I don't blame Israel for getting out of the UNHRC or anything else U.N.
Their location in the world, the middle east if you haven't noticed, isn't real big on human rights in the first place. If they have to take the gloves off to deal with the people that would exterminate them all at the first opportunity then so be it.
You do what you have to do, plain and simple.
If I had it my way the U.S. would be out of the U.N. and the U.N. would be out of the U.S. |
Well crap they better exterminate all the non-jews as a preventative measure, then again that might make them look like nazis which would be ironic.
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Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1657
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:03 am Post subject: |
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I agree with the general vibe that the HRC is laughably compromised. I can't take it seriously ever since that fiasco about defamation of religion.
But people shouldn't be too quick to judge the UN as irrelevant. If the UN doesn't like what you're doing, it's generally a bad sign. Remember the last time the "good guys" leapt into action without listening to the UN? Remember how the allied countries that spoke out against the plan, like New Zealand and France, were branded traitors and cowards? Yeah, I remember that too. Turned out well, didn't it?
Last edited by Declension on Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:10 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Jono
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 11, 2008
Age: 33
Posts: 2926
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| Sweetleaf wrote: | | Jono wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | Well Israel has been above human rights anyways, I mean they get a free pass to kill Palestinians whenever they want what do they need to be part of the human rights council so this isn't surprising. I still think both sides need to get over themselves and hold hands or something, but I am sure both sides would try to kill me if I threw this thought at them. |
And according to almost every UN resolution that tried to pass, Hamas has a free pass to fire rockets into Israeli civilian areas without consequence, despite being confirmed in fact finding missions too. |
Then how do you explain all the raids on the palestinians? I figured that was their punishment...the thing that bothers me about that is all the people that aren't part of Hamas who have to suffer or be killed because Israels complete disregard for civilians. |
That is an action taken unilaterally by Israel and has nothing to do with UN resolutions. Why has every single UN resolution only called for investigation into what Israel has done and yet has never called for any investigations on the Palestinian side, including the firing of rockets into Israeli civilian areas? |
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Raptor
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 09, 2007
Posts: 4511
Location: Southeast U.S.A.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| abacacus wrote: | | Raptor wrote: |
The U.N. wouldn't have nearly as much money, either.....
I can see your concern about power in the UN since the U.S. contributes 22% of the money and Canada only 3.2%. Who should have the most power, Sri Lanka?
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If you support the US having a veto then lets try a little thought experiment shall we? Lets say a Democrat in the U.S. Congress had the power to veto whatever he wanted (hypothetical mind you, don't just dismiss this as impossible and not even think about it). Wouldn't you be screaming and kicking that he shouldn't have that power every time he shot down a bill?
No democratic organization should *ever* have vetoes involved. Period, end of story. It doesn't matter how much money you put in. |
Obviously different rules apply for congres than the UN.
We put more into it (remember the 22% thing?) so we obviously should have a stronger voice in its actions. And if money doesn't matter let's try and operate the UN without money at all for a year and see how well that goes. |
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VMSmith
a figment of my own imagination
Joined: Apr 18, 2011
Age: 21
Posts: 2676
Location: the old country
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Israel severs ties with UN Human Rights Council |
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| Vigilans wrote: | | An international fact finding team could validate the Israelis if they really aren't violating human rights. I think a modern democratic nation withdrawing from the UNHRC is a very bad sign |
is it? democratic i mean. the words democracy and israel are not something i would associate with each other. the same goes for UN & democracy actually. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29332
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:12 am Post subject: Re: Israel severs ties with UN Human Rights Council |
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| VMSmith wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | | An international fact finding team could validate the Israelis if they really aren't violating human rights. I think a modern democratic nation withdrawing from the UNHRC is a very bad sign |
is it? democratic i mean. the words democracy and israel are not something i would associate with each other. the same goes for UN & democracy actually. |
governments in Israel are voted in and out by citizens registered to vote. Israel is a democratic secular state.
ruveyn |
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Raptor
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 09, 2007
Posts: 4511
Location: Southeast U.S.A.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| Sweetleaf wrote: | | Raptor wrote: | I don't blame Israel for getting out of the UNHRC or anything else U.N.
Their location in the world, the middle east if you haven't noticed, isn't real big on human rights in the first place. If they have to take the gloves off to deal with the people that would exterminate them all at the first opportunity then so be it.
You do what you have to do, plain and simple.
If I had it my way the U.S. would be out of the U.N. and the U.N. would be out of the U.S. |
Well crap they better exterminate all the non-jews as a preventative measure, then again that might make them look like nazis which would be ironic. |
If they pose an immediate threat to Israel then IDF obviously has to do whatever to assure the
safety and survival of its citizens WITHOUT outside interference. |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26054
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Raptor wrote: | | If they pose an immediate threat to Israel then IDF obviously has to do whatever to assure the safety and survival of its citizens WITHOUT outside interference. |
This is basic security of the state stuff. |
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Jono wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | Jono wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | Well Israel has been above human rights anyways, I mean they get a free pass to kill Palestinians whenever they want what do they need to be part of the human rights council so this isn't surprising. I still think both sides need to get over themselves and hold hands or something, but I am sure both sides would try to kill me if I threw this thought at them. |
And according to almost every UN resolution that tried to pass, Hamas has a free pass to fire rockets into Israeli civilian areas without consequence, despite being confirmed in fact finding missions too. |
Then how do you explain all the raids on the palestinians? I figured that was their punishment...the thing that bothers me about that is all the people that aren't part of Hamas who have to suffer or be killed because Israels complete disregard for civilians. |
That is an action taken unilaterally by Israel and has nothing to do with UN resolutions. Why has every single UN resolution only called for investigation into what Israel has done and yet has never called for any investigations on the Palestinian side, including the firing of rockets into Israeli civilian areas? |
I don't know...my main point here is I think both sides should pull their heads out of their asses, and quit trying to justify their killing of each other.
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It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Raptor wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | Raptor wrote: | I don't blame Israel for getting out of the UNHRC or anything else U.N.
Their location in the world, the middle east if you haven't noticed, isn't real big on human rights in the first place. If they have to take the gloves off to deal with the people that would exterminate them all at the first opportunity then so be it.
You do what you have to do, plain and simple.
If I had it my way the U.S. would be out of the U.N. and the U.N. would be out of the U.S. |
Well crap they better exterminate all the non-jews as a preventative measure, then again that might make them look like nazis which would be ironic. |
If they pose an immediate threat to Israel then IDF obviously has to do whatever to assure the
safety and survival of its citizens WITHOUT outside interference. |
So you think if they want to start a holocaust against arabs they should have that right, if they deem it an appropriate way to prevent the destruction of their nation? At that point their nation might as well be destroyed because genocide is wrong. I mean I can see why people don't like the nation of Israel and its got nothing to do with it being a largely jewish nation try the way it operates...maybe.
Israel is not center the whole world revolves around....but sometimes it seems people view it that way.
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It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
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abacacus
Rock 'N Roll Outlaw
Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Age: 21
Posts: 3323
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Raptor wrote: | | abacacus wrote: |
If you support the US having a veto then lets try a little thought experiment shall we? Lets say a Democrat in the U.S. Congress had the power to veto whatever he wanted (hypothetical mind you, don't just dismiss this as impossible and not even think about it). Wouldn't you be screaming and kicking that he shouldn't have that power every time he shot down a bill?
No democratic organization should *ever* have vetoes involved. Period, end of story. It doesn't matter how much money you put in. |
Obviously different rules apply for congres than the UN.
We put more into it (remember the 22% thing?) so we obviously should have a stronger voice in its actions. And if money doesn't matter let's try and operate the UN without money at all for a year and see how well that goes. |
You're dodging the point Raptor. Would you or would you not be fighting against that democrat having the power of veto?
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visagrunt
Polymath
Joined: Oct 17, 2009
Age: 45
Posts: 5754
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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Let's not mischaracterize the vetos held by the permanent members of the Security Council.
The China, France, Russia, the UK and the US can veto Security Council resolutions--they have no veto in the General Assembly, nor in any other UN organ.
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JeremyNJ1984
Velociraptor
Joined: Oct 10, 2010
Age: 29
Posts: 496
Location: Central New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Sweetleaf wrote: | | Raptor wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | Raptor wrote: | I don't blame Israel for getting out of the UNHRC or anything else U.N.
Their location in the world, the middle east if you haven't noticed, isn't real big on human rights in the first place. If they have to take the gloves off to deal with the people that would exterminate them all at the first opportunity then so be it.
You do what you have to do, plain and simple.
If I had it my way the U.S. would be out of the U.N. and the U.N. would be out of the U.S. |
Well crap they better exterminate all the non-jews as a preventative measure, then again that might make them look like nazis which would be ironic. |
If they pose an immediate threat to Israel then IDF obviously has to do whatever to assure the
safety and survival of its citizens WITHOUT outside interference. |
So you think if they want to start a holocaust against arabs they should have that right, if they deem it an appropriate way to prevent the destruction of their nation? At that point their nation might as well be destroyed because genocide is wrong. I mean I can see why people don't like the nation of Israel and its got nothing to do with it being a largely jewish nation try the way it operates...maybe.
Israel is not center the whole world revolves around....but sometimes it seems people view it that way. |
First off, The IDF and Israeli leadership would not launch a full scale genocidal campaign against the "Arabs" which is a pretty general unspecifed group considering their are nations that surround Israel that are made up of Arabs but they aren't united. Second, Yes..the reason Israel is hated by a lot of regimes is precisely because it is a Jewish nation...i don't understand why some people can't grasp the concept that anti-semitism did not die when Hitler killed himself in his bunker. It still persists as an idealogy in the third world and has been ingrained in post-colonial education systems because they see Zionism as an arm of " Jewish" financial interests meant to keep them in perpetual slavery...this was indoctrinated into their education systems in the third world due to their alignment with the Soviet Union. As someone who has gone to Israel numerous times I can say their is not one ounce of rational discussion within the Knesset or in normal political dialogue of eliminating Arabs. But sadly many of the regimes that surround Israel are made up of regimes that use the elimination of Israel as a means of legitimacy for their rule. |
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JeremyNJ1984
Velociraptor
Joined: Oct 10, 2010
Age: 29
Posts: 496
Location: Central New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Also, Kudos to Israel for finally getting out of the UN " Human rights council" which is an absolute joke of a group. The most recent example was Syria of all nations condemning Israel for " violating human rights"....the UN HRC is a GOOD idea, but the way its run and the way brutal oppressive regimes have been given the ability to manipulate it for purely political purposes is a complete abuse and no nation should have to withstand the criticism that is disproportionaly levelled against it, like Israel has been within this group. Its a complete mockert of the original intentions and is actually assisting human rights violations by putting the spotlight off the regimes that are currently committing real everyday human rights violations. When you have Syria, Libya, Sudan etc pointing fingers you know you have a major problem in how this system is run. |
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| JeremyNJ1984 wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | Raptor wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | Raptor wrote: | I don't blame Israel for getting out of the UNHRC or anything else U.N.
Their location in the world, the middle east if you haven't noticed, isn't real big on human rights in the first place. If they have to take the gloves off to deal with the people that would exterminate them all at the first opportunity then so be it.
You do what you have to do, plain and simple.
If I had it my way the U.S. would be out of the U.N. and the U.N. would be out of the U.S. |
Well crap they better exterminate all the non-jews as a preventative measure, then again that might make them look like nazis which would be ironic. |
If they pose an immediate threat to Israel then IDF obviously has to do whatever to assure the
safety and survival of its citizens WITHOUT outside interference. |
So you think if they want to start a holocaust against arabs they should have that right, if they deem it an appropriate way to prevent the destruction of their nation? At that point their nation might as well be destroyed because genocide is wrong. I mean I can see why people don't like the nation of Israel and its got nothing to do with it being a largely jewish nation try the way it operates...maybe.
Israel is not center the whole world revolves around....but sometimes it seems people view it that way. |
First off, The IDF and Israeli leadership would not launch a full scale genocidal campaign against the "Arabs" which is a pretty general unspecifed group considering their are nations that surround Israel that are made up of Arabs but they aren't united.
Well I know that I was being hypothetical, and even if that did happen I don't imagine it would go on very long...before that nation gets well....destroyed.
Second, Yes..the reason Israel is hated by a lot of regimes is precisely because it is a Jewish nation...i don't understand why some people can't grasp the concept that anti-semitism did not die when Hitler killed himself in his bunker. It still persists as an idealogy in the third world and has been ingrained in post-colonial education systems because they see Zionism as an arm of " Jewish" financial interests meant to keep them in perpetual slavery...this was indoctrinated into their education systems in the third world due to their alignment with the Soviet Union. As someone who has gone to Israel numerous times I can say their is not one ounce of rational discussion within the Knesset or in normal political dialogue of eliminating Arabs. But sadly many of the regimes that surround Israel are made up of regimes that use the elimination of Israel as a means of legitimacy for their rule. |
Also I am aware anti-semitism does still exist.......hell considering how many people in the U.S think a terrorist is anyone who looks middle eastern is rather anti-semitic considering the following dictionary definition.
Sem·ite noun
Definition of Semite
1
a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs
b : a descendant of these peoples
2
: a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language
but anyways anti-semitism is not the only reason people dislike Israel......I dislike it because of the things I've read up on about it and the ongoing palistinian/israeli conflict. But I think it's stupid to hate people for their race and it seems both sides are guilty of that more or less.
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