Magdalena
Sea Gull
Joined: Feb 07, 2012
Posts: 205
Location: United States
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 Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| AstroGeek wrote: | | Magdalena wrote: | | Tequila wrote: | | Magdalena wrote: | | If they're racist, then they are not truly on the left. |
I thought you'd give some non-answer like that. Yes, they are your people and you have a huge problem with accepting and tolerating racism when it is directed against whites and others that don't fit with your worldview.
I'll remember that when I see far-left activists hanging out at Palestinian rallies where Islamists call for the death of Jews. |
How is it a non-answer!? |
It's the no-true-scotsman fallacy. It allows you to make any statement about a group because if that statement doesn't apply to a group member, they aren't truly a member of that group, not in spirit. (The name is a reference to someone saying something like "All true Scotsmen are brave." If presented with a cowardly Scot then they'd reply "But he's not a true Scotsman.") Although I do think that if someone embraces the ideas of the left in their entirety then they can't be racist, it is a sad reality that many left-wingers still are racist. Everyone (including myself I imagine, although I wouldn't be able to say where) is capable of ignoring some aspect of an ideology if it conflicts with their pre-existing world view. (Just look at the Republican Party and all of the contradictions in their platform). |
This is what I meant. Being on the left is more than just agreeing with a side. It is committing oneself wholly to human progress. The definitions of leftism and progressivism rely hugely on this. If you are a racist then you are working against progress, not for it. To work against progress is to move away from the left. This is not a logical fallacy, it's a matter of actual definition.
_________________
Male-bodied pansexual and panromantic.
Your Aspie score: 130 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 90 of 200
You are very likely an Aspie
EQ Score: 37/100 ("low empathy") |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26031
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| Magdalena wrote: | | The definitions of leftism and progressivism rely hugely on this. |
Who the hell decides what is 'progressive'? |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26031
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| AstroGeek wrote: | | You'd be far better off allying yourself with groups like the Muslim Council of Britain (which, admittedly, is rather pretentious in the way it's appointed itself to represent all Muslims in the UK, but it does seem to have good basic goals). |
Ally myself with that bunch of taqqiya merchants? Get stuffed.
I ally myself with the likes of the British Muslims for Secular Democracy (as small as they are) and also the British Council of Ex-Muslims. |
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AstroGeek
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 29, 2011
Age: 19
Posts: 1477
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Tequila wrote: | | AstroGeek wrote: | | You'd be far better off allying yourself with groups like the Muslim Council of Britain (which, admittedly, is rather pretentious in the way it's appointed itself to represent all Muslims in the UK, but it does seem to have good basic goals). |
Ally myself with that bunch of taqqiya merchants? Get stuffed. |
I don't follow. Could you explain this? |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26031
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| AstroGeek wrote: | | I don't follow. Could you explain this? |
The Muslim Council of Britain is a Muslim Brotherhood front group. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29275
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| AstroGeek wrote: | | Tequila wrote: | | AstroGeek wrote: | | You'd be far better off allying yourself with groups like the Muslim Council of Britain (which, admittedly, is rather pretentious in the way it's appointed itself to represent all Muslims in the UK, but it does seem to have good basic goals). |
Ally myself with that bunch of taqqiya merchants? Get stuffed. |
I don't follow. Could you explain this? |
Taqqiiya is mandated deception to promote the welfare of the Ummah. A Muslim is obligated to lie about religious matters in order to protect Islam or Muslims.
See: http://www.islam-watch.org/Warner/Taqiyya-Islamic-Principle-Lying-for-Allah.htm
ruveyn
Last edited by ruveyn on Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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AstroGeek
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 29, 2011
Age: 19
Posts: 1477
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| Tequila wrote: | | AstroGeek wrote: | | I don't follow. Could you explain this? |
The Muslim Council of Britain is a Muslim Brotherhood front group. |
I find that difficult to believe, considering the Muslim Council of Britain's condemnation of violence, alliance with trade unions, and budding support of homosexuality. |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26031
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| AstroGeek wrote: | | I find that difficult to believe, considering the Muslim Council of Britain's condemnation of violence, alliance with trade unions, and budding support of homosexuality. |
| Quote: | Muslim Council: women cannot debate wearing veil
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8455955/Muslim-Council-women-cannot-debate-wearing-veil.html
The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) said that not covering the face is a "shortcoming" and suggested that any Muslims who advocate being uncovered could be guilty of rejecting Islam.
In a statement published on its website the MCB, warns: "We advise all Muslims to exercise extreme caution on this issue, since denying any part of Islam may lead to disbelief.
"Not practising something enjoined by Allah and his Messenger… is a shortcoming. Denying it is much more serious."
The statement quotes from the Koran: "It is not for a believer, man or woman, that they should have any option in their decision when Allah and his Messenger have decreed a matter." |
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AstroGeek
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 29, 2011
Age: 19
Posts: 1477
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| Tequila wrote: | | AstroGeek wrote: | | I find that difficult to believe, considering the Muslim Council of Britain's condemnation of violence, alliance with trade unions, and budding support of homosexuality. |
| Quote: | Muslim Council: women cannot debate wearing veil
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8455955/Muslim-Council-women-cannot-debate-wearing-veil.html
The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) said that not covering the face is a "shortcoming" and suggested that any Muslims who advocate being uncovered could be guilty of rejecting Islam.
In a statement published on its website the MCB, warns: "We advise all Muslims to exercise extreme caution on this issue, since denying any part of Islam may lead to disbelief.
"Not practising something enjoined by Allah and his Messenger… is a shortcoming. Denying it is much more serious."
The statement quotes from the Koran: "It is not for a believer, man or woman, that they should have any option in their decision when Allah and his Messenger have decreed a matter." |
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The person who signed that has since stepped down. And I saw multiple pictures on their website of Muslim women who were not veiled. They had on head scarfs, but not veils. The MCB does have some conservative viewpoints it seems, but many of them are no more so than the Catholic Church. Also, none of this has anything to do with a connection to the Muslim Brotherhood.
All of this really emphasizes to me why Britain needs a written constitution. Without it you have no guidelines over what you can or can not do in terms of multiculturalism.
As a side note, although I most defnitely do not believe that any women should feel obliged to dress a certain way, I do not support a banning of the veil as they've done in France. That also denies these women their freedom to dress the way they want. You can not force freedom on people. I realize that that is not the issue discussed here, of course. |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26031
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:07 am Post subject: |
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The fact that that kind of nonsense is coming out of the MCB at all, and combined with the state of Islam in the UK (as opposed to the Catholic Church) is a cause for some considerable worry, frankly.
We don't have multiculturalism here - we have tolerance of intolerance, divided areas and, increasingly, sectarian politics.
And I'm sorry, but the fact that they presume to speak for all Muslims is in itself very bad news in an area as sensitive as this. What gives them the right to speak for all Muslims? It doesn't - they have no mandate and no voice at all. They're self-appointed and unrepresentative and are taqqiya merchants. They speak of tolerance and open-mindedness and a willingness to integrate into British culture but their real aim is something else entirely.
Between 2001 and 2007, the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) expressed its unwillingness to attend the Holocaust Memorial Day ceremony and associated events, due to the "ongoing genocide and violation of Human Rights in the occupied Palestinian territories, in Jammu and Kashmir and elsewhere". Do you think this is acceptable?
This lot were actively being supported by the Government of the day until 2009, when they submitted the Istanbul Declaration, which supports the right of the Palestinian people "to resist the ongoing illegal and brutal occupation of their land". The Royal Navy was in the Gaza waters at the time, and the declaration also said that "foreign warships in Muslim waters, claiming to control the borders and prevent the smuggling of arms to Gaza" was a declaration of war. The leading lights of the MCB supported this, and the Labour government finally lost patience with them and severed ties.
Organisations like these, filled with extremists claiming to represent all Muslims, are very dangerous indeed I think. It would be like suggesting that the BNP represents all white, working class Brits.
I support a ban on veiling in shops, banks and anywhere else where people would normally be expected to be uncovered, like government offices and airports. Police officers and teachers must be unveiled. This goes without saying. But I wouldn't ban the garment altogether as this would probably mean that other cultural face masks (and masks used during protests) would have to go too.
Not much point having a written constitution if it will be subverted. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29275
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Cover you head all you want. But don't cover your face in a crowded area or a bank.
ruveyn |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26031
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | Cover you head all you want. But don't cover your face in a crowded area or a bank. |
I would be refused entry in a shop here if I wore a balaclava or a motorcycle helmet, covering my face. Why on Earth are Muslim women allowed to shop dressed like ninjas?
It's things like this that the people of Northern Europe are sick and tired of. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29275
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| Tequila wrote: | | ruveyn wrote: | | Cover you head all you want. But don't cover your face in a crowded area or a bank. |
I would be refused entry in a shop here if I wore a balaclava or a motorcycle helmet, covering my face. Why on Earth are Muslim women allowed to shop dressed like ninjas?
It's things like this that the people of Northern Europe are sick and tired of. |
Then do something about it.
Fortunately, in the United States, the Muslim Population while not assimilated by any means accomodates itself to the civil rules and customs of the society. I have yet to see a Muslim-American woman go out on the street in a full cover up Burka. And if she did should would not be permitted to enter a bank so attired. Most Muslim women I have seen cover their hair when in public. Which is cool because they are still quite identifiable even with their hair covered.
ruveyn |
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Tequila
Trust the people!
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 26031
Location: Lancashire, UK
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | Then do something about it. |
It's extremely commonplace in the local area. I was out in Preston today and I saw a few women wearing veils.
There's very little we can do about this because of the lack of democracy and free speech we have here. The only thing that can be done is to vote for parties that oppose this. |
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TM
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 2122
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| AstroGeek wrote: | | Tequila wrote: | | AstroGeek wrote: | | I don't follow. Could you explain this? |
The Muslim Council of Britain is a Muslim Brotherhood front group. |
I find that difficult to believe, considering the Muslim Council of Britain's condemnation of violence, alliance with trade unions, and budding support of homosexuality. |
Essentially from what I've heard of the Muslim Brotherhood and this may just be a conspiracy theory, but the phrase is "Become the majority population, then one election and democracy is gone". |
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