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naturalplastic
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 27, 2010
Posts: 4641
Location: mid atlantic coast usa
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 Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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This girls being bad at math thing is cultural.
In Korea, and other east Asian countries, girls and boys are equal in math aptitude. They dont have the folk belief that one gender is better than the other in math.
Though in America where there are gender differences among students in math even in America its not that simple.
If you look at the top ten percentile in math aptitude in any american coed public school youre going to find that that group is composed mostly of boys.
But if you look at the bottom ten percentile in math in the same school and look at who the dumbest in math are -guess who youll find.
Again it will be mostly boys. Males dominate a both extremes.
Men go to the extremes,and women cluster toward the mean.
The mean for both genders in math skill is about the same. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
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Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:29 am Post subject: |
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My guess is this: even if all cultural bias against females is removed, at the very top (95 th percentile or higher) of the population of mathematicians and theoretical physicists you will find a majority of males. I think there are definitely gender related factors in the way human brains work.
Only a guess.
ruveyn |
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TheHouseholdCat
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 01, 2012
Posts: 667
Location: Berlin, Germany
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| iceveela wrote: | I wrote an article about this but it did not save and I lost it, so I am not writing another.
But what I want to know is: Do you think science is a "Man's field?"
I have been told that science is a "man's field", and that I am a female.
Yes, I am a female, but I like science and am going into a field of science.
what is your opinion on the whole "man's field" thing? |
It's a man's field because of convention. It is not by definition something FOR men, but was simply created by them.
Increasingly, more and more women learn a profession in the field of science and it's a good thing. Because many still believe it's not something women can/(should) do. ^^
| ruveyn wrote: | My guess is this: even if all cultural bias against females is removed, at the very top (95 th percentile or higher) of the population of mathematicians and theoretical physicists you will find a majority of males. I think there are definitely gender related factors in the way human brains work.
Only a guess.
ruveyn |
It's all about how you've been brought up. If you've been brought up in an environment where women should not care about science, but the way they look and how they should bring up their children, then they're not very likely to become scientists.
The belief that there are "gender related factors in the way human brains work" is completely illogical and not based on empirical truths. If you check women's brains and say, "Oh well, it is obvious their brains are not made for science", this is completely... you know... because it leaves the factor of "environment" completely out of the equation.
Here's something to get you thinking... Why are there so many female linguists out there, even though it is a highly scientific subject? Oh yes, the gender bias. ^^ It's "just about language" some people think.
There's an increase in scientific analyses about whether women's brains are "women's brains" by definition or just by, you know... because they have been made that way. I don't think you should underestimate the omnipresence of sexism in society.
| ruveyn wrote: | | "at the very top (95 th percentile or higher) of the population of mathematicians and theoretical physicists you will find a majority of males" |
Yes, there is a lot of males AT THE VERY TOP everywhere.
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EXPANDED CIRCLE OF FIFTHS
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EXPECIALLY
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 21, 2011
Age: 29
Posts: 700
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| TheHouseholdCat wrote: | | iceveela wrote: | I wrote an article about this but it did not save and I lost it, so I am not writing another.
But what I want to know is: Do you think science is a "Man's field?"
I have been told that science is a "man's field", and that I am a female.
Yes, I am a female, but I like science and am going into a field of science.
what is your opinion on the whole "man's field" thing? |
It's a man's field because of convention. It is not by definition something FOR men, but was simply created by them.
Increasingly, more and more women learn a profession in the field of science and it's a good thing. Because many still believe it's not something women can/(should) do. ^^
| ruveyn wrote: | My guess is this: even if all cultural bias against females is removed, at the very top (95 th percentile or higher) of the population of mathematicians and theoretical physicists you will find a majority of males. I think there are definitely gender related factors in the way human brains work.
Only a guess.
ruveyn |
It's all about how you've been brought up. If you've been brought up in an environment where women should not care about science, but the way they look and how they should bring up their children, then they're not very likely to become scientists.
The belief that there are "gender related factors in the way human brains work" is completely illogical and not based on empirical truths. If you check women's brains and say, "Oh well, it is obvious their brains are not made for science", this is completely... you know... because it leaves the factor of "environment" completely out of the equation.
Here's something to get you thinking... Why are there so many female linguists out there, even though it is a highly scientific subject? Oh yes, the gender bias. ^^ It's "just about language" some people think.
There's an increase in scientific analyses about whether women's brains are "women's brains" by definition or just by, you know... because they have been made that way. I don't think you should underestimate the omnipresence of sexism in society.
| ruveyn wrote: | | "at the very top (95 th percentile or higher) of the population of mathematicians and theoretical physicists you will find a majority of males" |
Yes, there is a lot of males AT THE VERY TOP everywhere. |
To be fair he said theoretical physicists and mathematicians. But I agree that "science" consists of so many different things that women might actually be better in some ways and linguistics is definitely a left-brain endeavor.
They told me I had a gift for learning languages in 10th grade. At the same I had the numbers sense and spatial relations of a spider monkey 
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EXPECIALLY
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 21, 2011
Age: 29
Posts: 700
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:58 am Post subject: |
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OTOH I've wondered if teen girls are just having more disruptions in the brain due to hormonal changes than boys.
I know they're going through it too obviously, but estrogen swings combined with a still developing brain have the effect of making one crazy. I wasn't even one of the really girly teenage girls but it doesn't matter, I definitely had a few years where I really wasn't in control of my mind.
Now I'm actually better at math and not really less spatially retarded(which they say often contributes to or at least occurs along side with excellent mathematical ability) but I don't have trouble learning it like I did as teen.
Once you fall behind in 9th-10th grade it's extremely hard to recover, I think that could explain a lot.
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Neuromancer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 11, 2007
Posts: 1061
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Women and science |
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yes, science is a "Man's field, anyway it can be your field too, no real restriction, only a traditional one.
Men love inteligent women, there should be more female scientists, they are lovelly 
Do it passionately, and enjoy it.
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Stargazer43
Scruffy-looking Nerf Herder
Joined: Nov 07, 2011
Posts: 1328
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think it's a "man's" field per say, but there certainly are more men involved in it. For example, currently female college graduates outnumber male college graduates (per year, I don't know if that's true for total graduates). However, in technical fields such as engineering, there are typically ~75% men and 25% women in a graduating class. The women involved in scientific/technical fields can be every bit as capable as men. However I think that the main reason that many women shun these fields is just out of a lack of interest. It's my impression that this is largely caused by perceived societal expectations. Anything remotely scientific is often portrayed as "nerdy" and "antisocial" in popular culture, and I think that this impression may have a larger effect on women than it does on men when it comes to deciding on a career path. Of course I could be completely wrong, but that's just how I see it. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29328
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| Stargazer43 wrote: | | I don't think it's a "man's" field per say, but there certainly are more men involved in it. For example, currently female college graduates outnumber male college graduates (per year, I don't know if that's true for total graduates). However, in technical fields such as engineering, there are typically ~75% men and 25% women in a graduating class. The women involved in scientific/technical fields can be every bit as capable as men. However I think that the main reason that many women shun these fields is just out of a lack of interest. It's my impression that this is largely caused by perceived societal expectations. Anything remotely scientific is often portrayed as "nerdy" and "antisocial" in popular culture, and I think that this impression may have a larger effect on women than it does on men when it comes to deciding on a career path. Of course I could be completely wrong, but that's just how I see it. |
To excel in science and mathematics when one is young (and at his/her mental peak) requires an investment in time that would interfere with child up bringing. Women bear the major expenditure of time and effort to bring up a child compared to a man. All a man has to do is get his lady pregnant and he can pretty well be an absentee father. For a women, more time and effort is required to do the job. So a woman would have to make the choice: Be a math or physics genius or be a mother. The years of being one's mental prime coincide exactly with the years of maximum fertility for a woman. As a result many women will not make the sacrifice necessary to being a world class physicist or mathematician. Other branches of science require a lesser investment of time and energy. That is why there are so many women in fields related to psychology or some kind of care and nurturing.
ruveyn |
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echinopsis
Snowy Owl
Joined: Oct 04, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 129
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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science has been a mans field traditionally due to a historical lack of opportunities for women to get a proper education as required for science let alone to take up such a profession due to social pressure due to traditional gender roles.
this being said, A) there is no evidence suggesting a correlation between someones qualification for a scientific career and someones gender and B) the proportion of women in science has strongly increased within the last century. in my lab its pretty much even actually.
as for the "girls are scared of math" thing, i read a study about how the way math as a subject is introduced in primary schools by female teachers (who are not very confident about their math skills themselves) might influence girls perception of it (something thats very hard, complicated and more or less for boys) while boys are rather immune against math being presented in such a biased or at least hesitant way because they tend to "identify" with male "rolemodels" rather than female primary school teachers. if i recall that argumentation correctly. i can look it up and post it here in case someones interested.
edit: just to state this a bit more clearly, i do not perceive the "traditional gender roles" i mentioned above to be solely invented and established by men. |
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lostonearth35
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Joined: Jan 06, 2010
Age: 39
Posts: 844
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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I would probably make a pretty good scientist or even a doctor if It wasn't for the fact that I actually have "feelings" and "emotions" that society seems to hate so much. And the fact that I have a huge problem being around sick, contagious people (can't stand being in the same building with someone constantly coughing) And the lack of a college education and even a high-school diploma (EPIC FAILURE) isn't helping, either.  |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29328
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| lostonearth35 wrote: | | I would probably make a pretty good scientist or even a doctor if It wasn't for the fact that I actually have "feelings" and "emotions" that society seems to hate so much. And the fact that I have a huge problem being around sick, contagious people (can't stand being in the same building with someone constantly coughing) And the lack of a college education and even a high-school diploma (EPIC FAILURE) isn't helping, either. |
Medicine is clearly not your best career choice.
ruveyn |
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LKL
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Age: 37
Posts: 5695
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| Every math teacher I had from high school algebra through multi-variate calculus in college was female, except for the statistics teachers, who were all male. |
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| LKL wrote: | | Every math teacher I had from high school algebra through multi-variate calculus in college was female, except for the statistics teachers, who were all male. |
same here |
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TM
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 2122
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| EXPECIALLY wrote: | OTOH I've wondered if teen girls are just having more disruptions in the brain due to hormonal changes than boys.
I know they're going through it too obviously, but estrogen swings combined with a still developing brain have the effect of making one crazy. I wasn't even one of the really girly teenage girls but it doesn't matter, I definitely had a few years where I really wasn't in control of my mind.
Now I'm actually better at math and not really less spatially retarded(which they say often contributes to or at least occurs along side with excellent mathematical ability) but I don't have trouble learning it like I did as teen.
Once you fall behind in 9th-10th grade it's extremely hard to recover, I think that could explain a lot. |
Speaking as a man, I haven't been in control of my brain since I hit puberty. I swear if I could elect away one part of my gender is the idiotic way females affect my brain. |
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