Tadzio
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Age: 60
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Location: Banned-4-Epilepsy, USA
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 Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | We are not what we are just because of the material we are made of. What we are is shaped by the particular experience and history each of us have had. How can a person be reproduced after death without the experience that shaped him/her?
ruveyn |
You mean the movie on DVD isn't the same movie as the original one on celluloid?
| ruveyn wrote: | | auntblabby wrote: | | Robdemanc wrote: | | I would love to have an NDE, so if I have a heart attack I think I will be glad. |
my late grandfather died on the OR table and was rescuisitated, and later on everybody asked him, "well, what did you see when you were dead?" but he wouldn't say anything other than to say "i'm not afraid of death anymore." |
Your grand parent was not really dead. Perhaps the breathing and the heart stopped but the brain retained the ability ro resume the heartbeat when measures were applied. Really dead and gone people do not come back to tell us about it.
ruveyn |
With my NDE's being just about monthly before six years ago, I know ER doctors tend not to like their proclamations of death being challenged by the person classified as dead.
The book "Out-of-Body and Near-Death Experiences: Brain-State Phenomena or Glimpses of Immortality?" (Oxford Theological Monographs) by Michael N. Marsh, has many references, and often available previews:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=%22blanke+and+mohr%22+%2220+were+autoscopic%22
Tadzio |
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JNathanK
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Age: 26
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| bizboy1 wrote: | | Shatbat wrote: | | JNathanK wrote: |
I think that given an infinity, anything that's possible, no matter how slight the probability, is bound to happen again and again. I don't think anything happens once. Everything that's possible happens at varying rates of probability. Like there might be a 1 in a trillion chance of a given thing happening, but given an eternity, that thing will continue to manifest again and again to the end of time, just at a trillionth the rate of whatever manifests or is present most commonly. |
Well, that thought strengthens my beliefs. If I gained consciousness once, I probably can gain it again no matter how small the chance, and in an infinite amount of time I may!
Such a shame that doesn't account for remembering my present life though. |
Would you really value life if you remembered it? If you were reborn a slave and you knew there's a possibility that you can return as a king, then why not kill yourself? Or if you knew you would be reborn, then maybe you wouldn't value your life or your family and friends much.
Also, I think you are misinterpreting infinity. If the probability of an event goes to zero, it's not going to happen. This may be the case with consciousness. Not only that but there are constraints that nature gives us that further complicates these types of questions. My reasoning had to do with probabilities > 0, which may not be the case. If the universe isn't infinite (I've heard it isn't) or a set of infinite sets (parallel/multiverse) and each universe had the same properties needed for our consciousness, then this may never be the case (I think). |
I'd say if you're born a slave and think its possible to be reborn, whether as a king or something else, do reality justice, overthrow the king, and create a democracy. I could just as well say that all these people stuck on the notion of infinite death are willing to do anything and everything to validate their own existence, whether it means destroying the environment or trampling over the person next to them to get wealthy and get what they want before they, in a few very short years, slip into the eternal void of nothingness.
Why would the probability of an event go to zero? Yah, in some isolated epochs, like the big bang, there is no chance of life manifesting itself since the conditions don't allow it. To understand infinity, you have to take all aeons into account, and we already know that being born is possible, so we know in the grand scheme (the overall picture) of things that the probability is more than just zero. When reducing everything to a singularity, we know that there is at least one tiny epoch where its possible for life to evolve and for us to manifest as conscious individuals. This era is really a set of conditions, and if its possible once, it can be repeated again. This is the fundamental idea behind science. If a particular set of conditions are possible at all, they should be repeatable. Well, I know me being alive is possible just by me being. Taking that in account, it should be able to happen again if similar conditions happen. |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14832
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| CrazyCatLord wrote: |
A theoretical physicist (who knows a thing or two about neurobiology) would roll his eyes and say "that's new age nonsense repackaged in a pseudoscientific wrapper". People love the idea that all matter is energy, but matter has to take a very specific form to create a working brain made of living, breathing cells with a metabolism that communicate with the help of protein molecules.
If this intricate biological structure is no longer supplied with oxygen and glucose, the neurons die and neurochemical signal transmission stops. Which means there is no more thought, emotion or consciousness. The energy of the chemical compounds that used to be a working brain is only preserved insofar that it serves as food for saprotrophs such as worms and as fertilizer for plants. |
I ended up watching 'The Day I Died' for s^&*s and giggles and the argument and circumstantials seems to point that people are in deep comas, leaving their bodies, and doctors are giving feedback that these people are describing things that they had no visual contact with - in the room and while there's no brain activity - that they had not seen previously. They're also crystal on things said, body language, all while the brain is shut down, tape is over the eyes, and earplugs are even in place.
That result could mean a lot of different things, as well as the experiences reported, and I think things like this need continued close study because it would be interesting as well - even if through some fluke of entanglement consciousness survives outside the body for a little bit - to see whether people of different religious backgrounds see entirely different things, whether it comes down to them getting blanketed in their own tautologies and little more, or if they're sharing the same experience. |
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Robdemanc
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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In The Day I Died, what I find remarkable is the woman who had her heart stopped and her brain drained of blood for one hour. Which in medical terms means she must have been dead, because without blood no oxygen can be in the brain.
So surely this raises the question of what do we mean by "dead". I know I have read of cases where people have been proclaimed dead but then came back to life, so do we really understand what it means to die? |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
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Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| I think they were saying that once the heart stops brain activity follows within 8 seconds. If people can be brought back to life I think that simply means that they were able to recussitate the person's vital systems before a truly fatal amount of entropy occurred. |
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visagrunt
Polymath
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Age: 45
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Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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The medical definition of "death," was established by a small group of academics at Harvard. The idea being that once brain activity ceases, death of the organism is irreversible--or that any resumption of sustained life will not involve consciousness, cognition or personality.
This suits the transplant industry just fine. While a patient with a DNR order is allowed to die with dignity, a deceased patient with an organ donor card is treated very differently: the moment that brain death occurs, they are hooked up to any machine that will keep the organs alive and healthy until they can be harvested.
The significant question, though, is whether medically defined death is as irreversible as we are taught. And so far as I am concerned, the jury is still out on that one.
_________________
--James |
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ruveyn
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Age: 76
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| visagrunt wrote: |
The significant question, though, is whether medically defined death is as irreversible as we are taught. And so far as I am concerned, the jury is still out on that one. |
I agree. Anything that can be brought back to life was never dead in the first place.
ruveyn |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | visagrunt wrote: |
The significant question, though, is whether medically defined death is as irreversible as we are taught. And so far as I am concerned, the jury is still out on that one. |
I agree. Anything that can be brought back to life was never dead in the first place.
ruveyn |
When a person has a heart attack, has all brain activity stop, and is recussitated with paddles 5 minutes later - its still technically very difficult to argue that they weren't 'dead' for 4 minutes and 52 seconds.
The Harvard definition seems to mean 'All meaningful activity stops', though I don't know if visagrunt made a poor paraphrase or if they actually claimed that once all activity stops that entropy is impossible to reverse - I've never heard any such claim as this, nor have I ever seen where loss of vital signs meant zero chances. I've seen it mean slim to none, I've seen it mean that the person's future is in extreme jeopardy and that the doctors literally have minutes before its over, but not necessarily that its a guaranteed dead end. |
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Robdemanc
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| So it seems like death is a combination of things: no oxygen in the brain, heart stopped, vital organs beyond revival. It still seems a very grey area. |
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ruveyn
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: |
The Harvard definition seems to mean 'All meaningful activity stops',. |
Meaningful to whom? The doctors? The doctors are overlaying their ignorance on the biological state of the patient.
ruveyn |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: |
The Harvard definition seems to mean 'All meaningful activity stops',. |
Meaningful to whom? The doctors? The doctors are overlaying their ignorance on the biological state of the patient.
ruveyn[/quote]
If you'd give a terminology to all brain activity coming to a halt and no neural firing, when it doesn't end up with the person dying, what would you prefer to call it? |
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ruveyn
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: |
If you'd give a terminology to all brain activity coming to a halt and no neural firing, when it doesn't end up with the person dying, what would you prefer to call it? |
The EEG can detect electrical activity near the surface of the brain. One would need to probe deep so electrical activity in the interior.
ruveyn |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
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Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | techstepgenr8tion wrote: |
If you'd give a terminology to all brain activity coming to a halt and no neural firing, when it doesn't end up with the person dying, what would you prefer to call it? |
The EEG can detect electrical activity near the surface of the brain. One would need to probe deep so electrical activity in the interior.
ruveyn |
They'd be stuttering pretty badly to claim that all brain activity stops within eight seconds of the heart if they'd never thought to test it past an EEG in that case. |
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auntblabby
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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another interesting thing is how in some cases, people who received transplanted organs from dead folk, have reported dramatic changes in personality, including becoming musically talented [where the donor was a musician] when before the transplant they showed no signs of musical talent. google it and wonder.  |
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ruveyn
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Age: 76
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Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| auntblabby wrote: | | another interesting thing is how in some cases, people who received transplanted organs from dead folk, have reported dramatic changes in personality, including becoming musically talented [where the donor was a musician] when before the transplant they showed no signs of musical talent. google it and wonder. |
Attributing that to the transplant may be an instance of the fallacy: After this therefore because of this. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
ruveyn |
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