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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Posts: 9212
Location: Western Michigan
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 Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| Raptor wrote: | Let's help the predators, under the pretense of public safety as always, and change the laws to make their hunting grounds less risky  . Hey, they have rights!
Once SYG is defeated then on to CCW licensing, assault weapons  , handguns, rifles, shotguns, bows and arrows, knives, sharp sticks, rock throwing, etc.....
This IS the ultimate goal of the attackers of SYG laws, period. |
And you accuse others of emotional hysterics. You're just as bad as WD in the hyperbole department.
I actually have a liberal/libertarian stance regarding the second amendment. I'm not a "OMG guns are bad! ban them all" type. I could care less what weapons people choose to own. I have a problem with people thinking they have the right to use them to play cop or otherwise go looking for trouble. I would even be okay with the SYG law if there were exemptions from immunity to prosecution and presumption of innocence in the case of mutually provoked altercations and people who've gone around looking for trouble. I also have a problem with people who think they have the right to appoint themselves, under the guise of "self-defense", to the role of judge, jury, and executioner, and do target practice on fleeing unarmed thieves. Next ornery old f**** will be shooting juvenile punks for vandalizing their mailbox or TPing their tree. |
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WilliamWDelaney
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 27, 2011
Posts: 1201
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Dox47"] | article wrote: | | Means nothing without context, correlation not implying causation and all. |
Correlation alone does not imply causation. However, in this case, there is a control group, an experimental group, an independent variable and a dependent variable.
States that did not have a SYG law serve as a control group. Although it is conceivable that crime rates would increase suddenly in Florida but not in surrounding states, it is nevertheless valid to assume that relatively little will have changed in Florida that did not change in the surrounding states that did not have a SYG law in effect.
http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/dpps/news/self-defense-killings-up-from-2000-2010-dpgonc-20120331-gc%C2%A0_18945676
| Joe Palazzolo and Rob Barry for WSJ wrote: | | In Texas and Georgia, such cases nearly doubled and in Florida, they nearly tripled. Meanwhile, in states that saw no change in their self-defense laws, justifiable homicides reported to the FBI stayed nearly flat after a slight uptick in the middle decade. |
The fact of the matter is that there is a clear causal connection between SYG laws and killings being reported as "justifiable homicide." It does not require very much sophistication to figure out WHY.
However, if there is a correlation between SYG and homicide in general, there isn't enough as far as I can tell to start thinking about causality. After 2005, according to this statistics page, there was a noticeable bump, but it could as easily have been due to other factors.
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/flcrime.htm
As you can see, there was an equally dramatic downward tick in 2010 at around the same time we started seeing a national trend of reduced crime. Although it would be prudent to keep an eye on the relationship between SYG laws and homicide rates, there just isn't any real evidence on the matter.
Therefore, although SYG doesn't appear to have had a clear impact on the general homicide rate, the reality is that too many people seem to exploiting the SYG law, claiming "self-defense" in situations that could have and ought to have been averted.
| Quote: | | What is a half ghost by the way? |
Nothing, really. Wavelengths. When you are talking to somebody over a period of time, you start getting a sense of hearing certain "wavelengths" in how they put their thoughts together and put their thoughts into words. There is nothing magical or mysterious about it, even though it does seem like certain people can communicate things to each other implicitly that they can't get across in that way to others. It's just a name that I have for a certain set of wavelengths, and I get it from subjective impression. That's all I meant. It was fairly inconsequential. |
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Raptor
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 09, 2007
Posts: 4501
Location: Southeast U.S.A.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| marshall wrote: | | Raptor wrote: | Let's help the predators, under the pretense of public safety as always, and change the laws to make their hunting grounds less risky . Hey, they have rights!
Once SYG is defeated then on to CCW licensing, assault weapons , handguns, rifles, shotguns, bows and arrows, knives, sharp sticks, rock throwing, etc.....
This IS the ultimate goal of the attackers of SYG laws, period. |
And you accuse others of emotional hysterics. You're just as bad as WD in the hyperbole department.
I actually have a liberal/libertarian stance regarding the second amendment. I'm not a "OMG guns are bad! ban them all" type. I could care less what weapons people choose to own. I have a problem with people thinking they have the right to use them to play cop or otherwise go looking for trouble. I would even be okay with the SYG law if there were exemptions from immunity to prosecution and presumption of innocence in the case of mutually provoked altercations and people who've gone around looking for trouble. I also have a problem with people who think they have the right to appoint themselves, under the guise of "self-defense", to the role of judge, jury, and executioner, and do target practice on fleeing unarmed thieves. Next ornery old f**** will be shooting juvenile punks for vandalizing their mailbox or TPing their tree. |
| Quote: | | And you accuse others of emotional hysterics. You're just as bad as WD in the hyperbole department. |
So I guess it's just my imagination that the Trayvon Martin case is being played as justification for repealing SYG. Seems like every time someone is unfortunate enough to be at the receiving end of a bullet, occasioned by some freedom or other, that they become the poster child for more gun control. It sure didn't take The Brady Campaign long to capitalize on this. Within the space of about a day or so Trayvon Martin was the battle cry for more "reasonable gun control" and George Zimmerman was portrayed as the typical NRA member. I went to their website so i know what I'm talking about. Gotta milk the emotional effect for all it's worth no matter what. This is not the first time that the Brady bunch has gone after gun rights under the guise of public safety and used some misforunate victim as a poster boy.
| Quote: | | I actually have a liberal/libertarian stance regarding the second amendment. I'm not a "OMG guns are bad! ban them all" type. I could care less what weapons people choose to own. |
Sure, as long as there are reasonable common sense gun laws, eh? As if we don't already have too many of them.
| Quote: | | I have a problem with people thinking they have the right to use them to play cop or otherwise go looking for trouble. I would even be okay with the SYG law if there were exemptions from immunity to prosecution and presumption of innocence in the case of mutually provoked altercations and people who've gone around looking for trouble. I also have a problem with people who think they have the right to appoint themselves, under the guise of "self-defense", to the role of judge, jury, and executioner, and do target practice on fleeing unarmed thieves. |
People pretending to be cops is a rare scenario. But hey, lets change the law anyways. And next time someone uses poor discretion, yet within the current traffic laws, and gets someone killed let's reduce the speed limit to 35 mph on ALL the freeways.
| Quote: | | Next ornery old f**** will be shooting juvenile punks for vandalizing their mailbox or TPing their tree. |
And you say I'm emotionally hysterical. |
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simon_says
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2011
Posts: 2443
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I do hope that SYG is modified or repealed. I have doubts it will be. Yes, I would also like tighter regulations on guns. I'd like universal background checks so that private sales were also subject to a background check and, if required to make that work better, gun registration as well.
It wouldnt be easy to get done but if we had that system today, we'd be safer. The only real argument against it is that NRA types believe that the government will then come to your door and take your weapons. From a safety standpoint, it's clearly better to physically bar dangerous people from most gun sources and not just make it an additional charge later if we happen to catch them with it. If they are all forced into an untraceable black market then prices will rise at least. |
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Raptor
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 09, 2007
Posts: 4501
Location: Southeast U.S.A.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| simon_says wrote: | Yes, I do hope that SYG is modified or repealed. I have doubts it will be. Yes, I would also like tighter regulations on guns. I'd like universal background checks so that private sales were also subject to a background check and, if required to make that work better, gun registration as well.
It wouldnt be easy to get done but if we had that system today, we'd be safer. The only real argument against it is that NRA types believe that the government will then come to your door and take your weapons. From a safety standpoint, it's clearly better to physically bar dangerous people from most gun sources and not just make it an additional charge later if we happen to catch them with it. If they are all forced into an untraceable black market then prices will rise at least. |
And when these controlls fail to yield the expected results, and they will fail, what's the next step and the next after that?
I'd say more but I'm on my iPhone at the shooting range for real trying out my new S&W .45. |
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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Posts: 9212
Location: Western Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Raptor wrote: | | So I guess it's just my imagination that the Trayvon Martin case is being played as justification for repealing SYG. Seems like every time someone is unfortunate enough to be at the receiving end of a bullet, occasioned by some freedom or other, that they become the poster child for more gun control. It sure didn't take The Brady Campaign long to capitalize on this. Within the space of about a day or so Trayvon Martin was the battle cry for more "reasonable gun control" and George Zimmerman was portrayed as the typical NRA member. I went to their website so i know what I'm talking about. Gotta milk the emotional effect for all it's worth no matter what. This is not the first time that the Brady bunch has gone after gun rights under the guise of public safety and used some misforunate victim as a poster boy. |
SYG is not about "gun control". I have no issue with people owning and/or carrying a weapon. I have issue with a law giving people a license to kill and escape charges via "self-defense".
| Quote: | | Quote: | | I actually have a liberal/libertarian stance regarding the second amendment. I'm not a "OMG guns are bad! ban them all" type. I could care less what weapons people choose to own. |
Sure, as long as there are reasonable common sense gun laws, eh? As if we don't already have too many of them. |
Nope, I don't give a rats ass what guns you want to own, as long as you don't use them on people. :facepalm:
| Quote: | | Quote: | | I have a problem with people thinking they have the right to use them to play cop or otherwise go looking for trouble. I would even be okay with the SYG law if there were exemptions from immunity to prosecution and presumption of innocence in the case of mutually provoked altercations and people who've gone around looking for trouble. I also have a problem with people who think they have the right to appoint themselves, under the guise of "self-defense", to the role of judge, jury, and executioner, and do target practice on fleeing unarmed thieves. |
People pretending to be cops is a rare scenario. But hey, lets change the law anyways. And next time someone uses poor discretion, yet within the current traffic laws, and gets someone killed let's reduce the speed limit to 35 mph on ALL the freeways. |
So you think people should have the right to go around harassing and intimidating people that "look suspicious" and then use their weapon in "self-defense" if their obnoxious behavior provokes someone to snap and take a swing at them. I'm sure the number of people who go around with a gun picking fights is comparable to the number of people who drive over 35 on the freeway. |
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Raptor
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 09, 2007
Posts: 4501
Location: Southeast U.S.A.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| marshall wrote: | | Raptor wrote: | | So I guess it's just my imagination that the Trayvon Martin case is being played as justification for repealing SYG. Seems like every time someone is unfortunate enough to be at the receiving end of a bullet, occasioned by some freedom or other, that they become the poster child for more gun control. It sure didn't take The Brady Campaign long to capitalize on this. Within the space of about a day or so Trayvon Martin was the battle cry for more "reasonable gun control" and George Zimmerman was portrayed as the typical NRA member. I went to their website so i know what I'm talking about. Gotta milk the emotional effect for all it's worth no matter what. This is not the first time that the Brady bunch has gone after gun rights under the guise of public safety and used some misforunate victim as a poster boy. |
SYG is not about "gun control". I have no issue with people owning and/or carrying a weapon. I have issue with a law giving people a license to kill and escape charges via "self-defense".
| Quote: | | Quote: | | I actually have a liberal/libertarian stance regarding the second amendment. I'm not a "OMG guns are bad! ban them all" type. I could care less what weapons people choose to own. |
Sure, as long as there are reasonable common sense gun laws, eh? As if we don't already have too many of them. |
Nope, I don't give a rats ass what guns you want to own, as long as you don't use them on people. :facepalm:
| Quote: | | Quote: | | I have a problem with people thinking they have the right to use them to play cop or otherwise go looking for trouble. I would even be okay with the SYG law if there were exemptions from immunity to prosecution and presumption of innocence in the case of mutually provoked altercations and people who've gone around looking for trouble. I also have a problem with people who think they have the right to appoint themselves, under the guise of "self-defense", to the role of judge, jury, and executioner, and do target practice on fleeing unarmed thieves. |
People pretending to be cops is a rare scenario. But hey, lets change the law anyways. And next time someone uses poor discretion, yet within the current traffic laws, and gets someone killed let's reduce the speed limit to 35 mph on ALL the freeways. |
So you think people should have the right to go around harassing and intimidating people that "look suspicious" and then use their weapon in "self-defense" if their obnoxious behavior provokes someone to snap and take a swing at them. I'm sure the number of people who go around with a gun picking fights is comparable to the number of people who drive over 35 on the freeway. |
I think you missed my point but whatever............. |
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abacacus
Rock 'N Roll Outlaw
Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Age: 21
Posts: 3316
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| simon_says wrote: | Yes, I do hope that SYG is modified or repealed. I have doubts it will be. Yes, I would also like tighter regulations on guns. I'd like universal background checks so that private sales were also subject to a background check and, if required to make that work better, gun registration as well.
It wouldnt be easy to get done but if we had that system today, we'd be safer. The only real argument against it is that NRA types believe that the government will then come to your door and take your weapons. From a safety standpoint, it's clearly better to physically bar dangerous people from most gun sources and not just make it an additional charge later if we happen to catch them with it. If they are all forced into an untraceable black market then prices will rise at least. |
The issue with making it harder for people to get guns, is that then they will not have guns while the criminals who don't care about legality *do* have guns.
That doesn't usually lead to safety. I'm not sure why so many people can't understand that. Even up here in Canada (far safer than the U.S. overall) there is a thriving illegal market for handguns (because they are hard to get up here). I could have a handgun and several thousand rounds in a few hours without much trouble without the law ever knowing about it. Not such a big problem in my area, but in major cities gang violence is a very real daily occurrence.... with illegally purchased handguns.
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simon_says
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2011
Posts: 2443
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| abacacus wrote: | | simon_says wrote: | Yes, I do hope that SYG is modified or repealed. I have doubts it will be. Yes, I would also like tighter regulations on guns. I'd like universal background checks so that private sales were also subject to a background check and, if required to make that work better, gun registration as well.
It wouldnt be easy to get done but if we had that system today, we'd be safer. The only real argument against it is that NRA types believe that the government will then come to your door and take your weapons. From a safety standpoint, it's clearly better to physically bar dangerous people from most gun sources and not just make it an additional charge later if we happen to catch them with it. If they are all forced into an untraceable black market then prices will rise at least. |
The issue with making it harder for people to get guns, is that then they will not have guns while the criminals who don't care about legality *do* have guns.
That doesn't usually lead to safety. I'm not sure why so many people can't understand that. Even up here in Canada (far safer than the U.S. overall) there is a thriving illegal market for handguns (because they are hard to get up here). I could have a handgun and several thousand rounds in a few hours without much trouble without the law ever knowing about it. Not such a big problem in my area, but in major cities gang violence is a very real daily occurrence.... with illegally purchased handguns. |
If they arent felons or mentally unstable they would still be able to get guns. As it stands they can just buy guns privately. The restrictions don't mean much. |
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abacacus
Rock 'N Roll Outlaw
Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Age: 21
Posts: 3316
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, but it will be harder. The harder you make it, the more people will be willing to buy the guns they want illegally (like has happened in Canada).
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simon_says
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2011
Posts: 2443
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| abacacus wrote: | | Yes, but it will be harder. The harder you make it, the more people will be willing to buy the guns they want illegally (like has happened in Canada). |
By that logic we shouldnt do background checks at all and just sell guns to anyone. Not many people will agree with that. |
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abacacus
Rock 'N Roll Outlaw
Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Age: 21
Posts: 3316
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| simon_says wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | Yes, but it will be harder. The harder you make it, the more people will be willing to buy the guns they want illegally (like has happened in Canada). |
By that logic we shouldnt do background checks at all and just sell guns to anyone. Not many people will agree with that. |
It's a matter of balance. Make it too easy, people who shouldn't have guns will have them. Make it too hard, and people will buy them illegally whether they should have them or not.
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You'll gain your just reward.
We'll not rest until the purge is complete
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| abacacus wrote: | | simon_says wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | Yes, but it will be harder. The harder you make it, the more people will be willing to buy the guns they want illegally (like has happened in Canada). |
By that logic we shouldnt do background checks at all and just sell guns to anyone. Not many people will agree with that. |
It's a matter of balance. Make it too easy, people who shouldn't have guns will have them. Make it too hard, and people will buy them illegally whether they should have them or not. |
I agreewith Abacacus on this one. |
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Ztrain
Snowy Owl
Joined: Jul 25, 2011
Age: 18
Posts: 133
Location: Rockford, IL
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:50 am Post subject: |
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Luckily have very little trouble with cops and theres no community watch in my neighborhood. Since its in the hood (West Side of Rockford!) they usually target black people rather than crazy looking white guys.Still people given authority have been hostile to me in the past. rincipals like to force me to sit down when have nervous breakdowns in the cafeteria and need to walk around a bit to collect my thoughts.
erhaps we should capture Zimmerman and turn him over to the new Black panther arty |
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simon_says
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2011
Posts: 2443
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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Zimmerman was just charged with 2cd degree murder. No grand jury after all.
His lawyers quit yesterday after they complained that he wasnt talking to them and that they didnt know where he was located. He's also not following their advice. Silly. He needs to cling to his lawyers for dear life right now. |
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