CockneyRebel
Mick Avory, Sensitive brown-eyed Sweet Pea
Joined: Jul 18, 2004
Age: 38
Posts: 87357
Location: In a quiet and peaceful garden, where gentle Mick Avory-like Sweet Peas grow.
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CockneyRebel
Mick Avory, Sensitive brown-eyed Sweet Pea
Joined: Jul 18, 2004
Age: 38
Posts: 87357
Location: In a quiet and peaceful garden, where gentle Mick Avory-like Sweet Peas grow.
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Mysty
Phoenix
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Joined: Jun 25, 2008
Age: 43
Posts: 1999
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 Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| TPE2 wrote: | Another point is that, I suppose, the nature of the difference of the mental processes between autistics and NTs is not yet well unbderstood (look at all the competing theories - theory of mind, executive function, systemizing/empathazing, central coherence...).
And, if we don't really know how autistic mind is different from NT mind, how we can know how NT mind is different from autistic mind? |
Well, if the point is to understand NTs, you don't have to. Understanding autistics in general isn't necessary. Understand yourself (not necessarily perfectly, but some self understanding), and then take that to what you read about the mind in general. Read books and articles about the mind with the idea that some of it will be accurate in general (that is, for most people) but not apply to you personally.
_________________
not aspie, not NT, somewhere in between
Aspie Quiz: 110 Aspie, 103 Neurotypical.
Used to be more autistic than I am now. |
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Mysty
Phoenix
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Joined: Jun 25, 2008
Age: 43
Posts: 1999
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| nessa238 wrote: | | Jaydee wrote: | | EXPECIALLY wrote: | It would be hard to find a book about this because NTs are most of the population. Maybe just books on human social behavior. Not easy to find specific things about NT communication and how it's different than autism like it would be to find about autistics because nobody thinks of comparing the "normal" people to the minority group, maybe somebody will.
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This is absolutely true. NTs do not form a homogenous group of people who think, feel and act in more or less the same way. There are as many "models" as there are humans. There are thousands and thousands of books written about communication - and that ought to tell you that NTs may also find communication challenging, and that there is no one way to go about it.
NTs do not think in one way. We do not feel the same. There are NTs that hate socializing, but others that love it - most of us are perhaps somewhere along the scale between the two.
Some NTs are good at reading between the lines, others less so. Some NTs use body language a lot, others less so. Some people love facebook, many others do not see the point of it at all.
Bottom line: We're all widely different individuals. The only thing we can safely say that NTs have in common is that we are not austisic. That really isn't much to go by when trying to define us.  |
This might be true to a certain extent but most NTs are highly adept at forming a frighteningly generic, conformist pack which will proceed to turn on the nearest vulnerable aspie in an utterly ruthless manner when it suits them!
There's certainly not much difference between them then! Try being on the receiving end of it for once!
NTs are pack animals whereas people with Aspergers are individuals
I think you can compare it to chimps vs an orang-utang - orang-utangs are very solitary and sweet-natured whereas chimps live in packs and are exceedingly aggressive - it is the pack mentality that causes the viciousness
I'd rather be an orang-utang than a chimp any day.
I will define NTs by how they have acted towards me throughout my life |
Both Jaydee and Nessa are right. Yes, NTs are individuals; they aren't all alike, they don't all think alike. But, at the same time, they do have the tendency to conform, to fit in, that pack mind. And really, understanding that is pretty important to understanding NTs. Don't take it as an absolute. A couple reasons not to. One, there's a whole continuum from autistic/AS to NT, and maybe even beyond that. Not even one falls neatly into NT or AS. But, also, just because NTs have that conformist pack tendency doesn't mean they are always like that. It's not that simple.
_________________
not aspie, not NT, somewhere in between
Aspie Quiz: 110 Aspie, 103 Neurotypical.
Used to be more autistic than I am now. |
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TechnoDog
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 17, 2012
Posts: 869
Location: Thornaby, UK
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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I really don't like this NT word, too wide. When you ask what it means, people just say non-autistic. That just makes me think they avoiding answering the question, because they hiding something. ( It was coined by the autistic community? ) So how did they come to this conclusion of what a non-autitic person is. Based on what exactly is a autistic person in the first place.
I think I will just stick with the I & E & take people on an individual level & just try & work out if they just playing the game, so people will not social alienate them.
_________________
INTJ, Type5 Observer, Ecologists,
“When you make a mistake, don't look back at it long. Take the reason of the thing into your mind and then look forward. Mistakes are lessons of wisdom. The past cannot be changed. The future is yet in your power.” |
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Jtuk
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 22, 2012
Posts: 732
Location: Wales, UK
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| nessa238 wrote: |
I agree with that. Being accepted by the group is far more important to the average NT than being 'right' or being in ownership of the right information - it's positively uncool to most NTs to be obsessed with proving something factually correct a lot of the time (often because a lot of what they say is based on outright lies and exaggeration which they don't want exposed!)
As long as they can all whoop loudly and hug each other who gives a stuff about objective fact? This is where me and most NTs part ways as if you can't value facts what's the point of anything?? |
As a generalisation aspies are the opposite of what you described, aspies as a group tend to be into facts and passing along information. It is wrong to generalise NTs as you have though, there are enormous differences and the response will depend on the situation.
This is perhaps where people get confused in this whole aspie vs NT thing, aspies have some fairly predictable traits, but the same isn't true of NTs.
Jason |
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nessa238
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 02, 2011
Age: 47
Posts: 3908
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Jtuk wrote: | | nessa238 wrote: |
I agree with that. Being accepted by the group is far more important to the average NT than being 'right' or being in ownership of the right information - it's positively uncool to most NTs to be obsessed with proving something factually correct a lot of the time (often because a lot of what they say is based on outright lies and exaggeration which they don't want exposed!)
As long as they can all whoop loudly and hug each other who gives a stuff about objective fact? This is where me and most NTs part ways as if you can't value facts what's the point of anything?? |
As a generalisation aspies are the opposite of what you described, aspies as a group tend to be into facts and passing along information. It is wrong to generalise NTs as you have though, there are enormous differences and the response will depend on the situation.
This is perhaps where people get confused in this whole aspie vs NT thing, aspies have some fairly predictable traits, but the same isn't true of NTs.
Jason |
The part of my post that you have quoted was about NTs not aspies. I never said aspies weren't into facts and passing on information - I was actively saying they were.
So you've misunderstood what I was saying.
And NTs are predictability personified in my opinion - they are practically like robots!
You can mess with their circuitry by asking them an unexpected question - their whole system goes 'Does not compute!' and they can't give an intelligent answer as the majority of their opinions come from their group, not from working it out for themselves.
People can only speak from their own experience of the NTs they have interacted with anyway and this is mine.
So please don't tell me I'm 'wrong' as it's all purely subjective anyway |
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Jtuk
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 22, 2012
Posts: 732
Location: Wales, UK
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| nessa238 wrote: |
The part of my post that you have quoted was about NTs not aspies. I never said aspies weren't into facts and passing on information - I was actively saying they were.
So you've misunderstood what I was saying.
And NTs are predictability personified in my opinion - they are practically like robots!
You can mess with their circuitry by asking them an unexpected question - their whole system goes 'Does not compute!' and they can't give an intelligent answer as the majority of their opinions come from their group, not from working it out for themselves.
People can only speak from their own experience of the NTs they have interacted with anyway and this is mine.
So please don't tell me I'm 'wrong' as it's all purely subjective anyway |
No, I haven't misunderstood. You are generalising about NTs, where we can only generalise (with limited reliability) about aspies.
Could you give an example of an unexpected question? I know that a lot of aspies on this forum would struggle to answer expected questions, such as those given in a job interview.
Jason. |
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TheSunAlsoRises
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 02, 2011
Posts: 1039
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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Imagine your mildest meltdown, it's resultant sensory input-output, coupled with emotional affect and combined with literal thinking------>Non-Autistic Thinking
TheSunAlsoRises |
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TechnoDog
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 17, 2012
Posts: 869
Location: Thornaby, UK
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| TheSunAlsoRises wrote: | Imagine your mildest meltdown, it's resultant sensory input-output, coupled with emotional affect and combined with literal thinking------>Non-Autistic Thinking
TheSunAlsoRises |
If your talking about "Idioms", anyone who does not know the meaning of one will take it literally. Sure I heard tones of people literally fallowing they gps system.
| Quote: | “I asked her to help me clear the breakfast bowls off the table and because the dishwasher still needed unpacking from the night before, I asked her to just “toss” the dirty bowls in the sink and I would deal with them later.
so she did. From almost a metre away. And they ALL broke. She couldn’t understand what the problem was, I had said to toss them!” |
http://www.shiftjournal.com/2011/07/08/on-literal-thinking/
That to me is a lack of common sense. You know they will break.
_________________
INTJ, Type5 Observer, Ecologists,
“When you make a mistake, don't look back at it long. Take the reason of the thing into your mind and then look forward. Mistakes are lessons of wisdom. The past cannot be changed. The future is yet in your power.” |
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TheSunAlsoRises
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 02, 2011
Posts: 1039
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| TechnoDog wrote: | | TheSunAlsoRises wrote: | Imagine your mildest meltdown, it's resultant sensory input-output, coupled with emotional affect and combined with literal thinking------>Non-Autistic Thinking
TheSunAlsoRises |
If your talking about "Idioms", anyone who does not know the meaning of one will take it literally. Sure I heard tones of people literally fallowing they gps system.
| Quote: | “I asked her to help me clear the breakfast bowls off the table and because the dishwasher still needed unpacking from the night before, I asked her to just “toss” the dirty bowls in the sink and I would deal with them later.
so she did. From almost a metre away. And they ALL broke. She couldn’t understand what the problem was, I had said to toss them!” |
http://www.shiftjournal.com/2011/07/08/on-literal-thinking/
That to me is a lack of common sense. You know they will break. |
Take for Instance the situation involving disabled children being killed by their mothers.
There is a more effective way to handle the situation without outright accusing the mother of murder and denying her any sympathy. Once you take this approach, you have alienated yourself from the family in question and devalued their love ones. They have lost, in most cases atleast two family members; they do NOT need someone coming forth to proclaim one life as being more valuable than the other. While the cause and rightness of having a disabled victim acknowledge in any tragic circumstance is essential; the way it is approached is of the utmost importance for everyone involved
Just think how effective a person or an organization could become IF they contacted the family of disabled victims offered their condolences and remembrance without passing judgement. You see enough faces and vigils done in goodwill and those efforts will come to fruition.
In the handling of this situation, the flip-side is a literal approach which does NOT by default mean logical. Once, you accuse a parent(who has had a history of love and dedication to their disabled child) of being simply a murderer without taking into consideration other societal factors ; a deafening silence falls over a large population of people. These people who identify with and understand 'factors' other then the literalness of the act.. turn off. Thus, nothing is accomplished.
TheSunAlsoRises
Last edited by TheSunAlsoRises on Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TheSunAlsoRises
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 02, 2011
Posts: 1039
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| TechnoDog wrote: | | TheSunAlsoRises wrote: | Imagine your mildest meltdown, it's resultant sensory input-output, coupled with emotional affect and combined with literal thinking------>Non-Autistic Thinking
TheSunAlsoRises |
If your talking about "Idioms", anyone who does not know the meaning of one will take it literally. Sure I heard tones of people literally fallowing they gps system.
| Quote: | “I asked her to help me clear the breakfast bowls off the table and because the dishwasher still needed unpacking from the night before, I asked her to just “toss” the dirty bowls in the sink and I would deal with them later.
so she did. From almost a metre away. And they ALL broke. She couldn’t understand what the problem was, I had said to toss them!” |
http://www.shiftjournal.com/2011/07/08/on-literal-thinking/
That to me is a lack of common sense. You know they will break. |
I gave an example of the nuances of literal thinking( on this thread) without considering idioms.
I think a combination of all the factors below working at one time will give you a model of non-autistic thinking.
Imagine your mildest meltdown, it's resultant sensory input-output, coupled with emotional affect and combined with literal thinking------>Non-Autistic Thinking
TheSunAlsoRises |
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BuyerBeware
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 29, 2011
Age: 35
Posts: 1051
Location: PA, USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Jaydee wrote: | | This is truly interesting. Many aspies on the WP forum talk about the NTs' apparent (and obviously irritating) lack of focus on and interest in facts. To me it becomes something of a paradox that one of the facts most ignored by aspies is that NTs do not constitute a homogenous group of people. The only thing that may accurately define us in the context of this forum, is that we are not on the autistic spectrum. Beyond that, we're actually as different as everyone else. Countless NTs love facts - they occupy themselves with hard facts on an everyday basis. And that is a fact. And it's been repeated many times. But somehow, that seems to be a fact that some aspies are reluctant to accept. |
Yes-- true. And definitely you are no more all alike than we are-- I don't know about anyone else, but if you were, I'd have developed an algorithm for dealing with y'all by now and, while I might still be bitter and angry, I wouldn't be confused and I suspect I'd be less afraid.
NTs that run the way you are talking about are the ones I enjoy socializing with (and occasionally give a backhanded compliment by saying something like, "I wonder what the hell your diagnosis is.").
Y'all are definitely a significant percentage of the NT population-- I don't know whether a majority or not-- and I don't think we mean to ignore you or deny your existence.
We just don't talk about you much because you are not the aspect of society we're having problems with. You are the aspect of society that gives us hope to keep trying, to believe there's a reason to keep trying, to be confused when we get burned by the stupid and nasty ones... oy vey. This gets complicated, doesn't it??
Kind of like many mental health professionals (and all too many knowledgeable NTs) don't talk about all the things we can do, all the strengths we do have (unless they're rather condescendingly trying to talk us out of ending our own lives)-- because those things aren't a problem.
OK, guys-- There's a high-functioning neurotypical (lol   ) in the house-- let's put our heads together and see what we can figure out to do about a problem that is, frankly, vexing for a great many of all of us.
Maybe if we can work it out, we can teach it to the Christians and the Pagans...
...and when they get it, we'll move on to the Muslims and the Jews.
OK. Enough bitter humor. Back to the subject matter at hand.
_________________
I'm tired. I do not have sufficient strength remaining to persevere in the face of adversity. I accept myself as broken and conformity/compliance as the only acceptable existence. I give up.
What's on TV tonight?? |
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TheSunAlsoRises
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 02, 2011
Posts: 1039
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: Understanding the model NTs operate on |
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| Cogs wrote: | Does anyone know of any resources (books, websites, journal articles etc) to help understand what model NTs operate on?
Essentially I want to understand the difference between myself and NTs, what NTs want, how they perceive things etc.
A key focus for me is communication. I want to understand NTs communication models - how and why they communicate, what methods they use, how they achieve disired aims, why they use non-literal communication etc. Essentially anything along these lines that will help me understand NTs different perspective better. I am already looking though past WP threads, so am particularly interested in things from outside of WP. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help! |
The spectrum is so diverse.....BUT here is another way of looking at non-autistic thinking.
IF you can do this, imagine something happens to whatever means the most to you in your life, a person, animal, place, object, or special interest ; it's taken away never to be returned. I want you to turn down the emotional affect resulting in this lost approximately 85 percent. The remaining 15% emotional affect influences your method of thinking on a constant basis.
TheSunAlsoRises |
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Cogs
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 13, 2012
Age: 21
Posts: 839
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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The Sun Also Rises, I am very interested in what you are saying and the models you have proposed, however I do not understand what you are meaning? Can you or someone please explain?
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No one will tell me who and what I am and can be. |
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