FluffyDog
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 23, 2010
Age: 32
Posts: 639
Location: The rainiest part of Germany
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 Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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The R at the end of a word is usually dropped even the "official" version of our language, especially when the word is ending on -er. But in the middle of words, I think it is more of a regional thing. There is a few Germany who even roll their Rs slightly, the way it is done in certain Spanish words, only less pronounced, but those are a minority. Most Germans drop the R, but to differing amounts. Some tend to drop it in combinations with certain vowels, others tend to drop it whenever possible.
The region around Cologne, where I live, is infamous for us dropping a lot of consonants (and not just Rs) and linguists can in many cases tell where a person was raised with an accuracy of "either this village or the next one" in our region by how certain sounds or combinations of sounds are pronounced. This was even used to catch a criminal once whose voice on the phone was analyzed and then the police could pinpoint and search the village that the man was from.
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phil777
Phoenix
Joined: May 21, 2008
Age: 26
Posts: 4825
Location: Montreal, Québec
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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All in all, my linguistics teach told that much of the reason why languages change is often due to human laziness.  I mean, if you compare latin and french, it's obvious that french is much clearer (as in, makes sense, unlike latin, which can be in ANY S,V,O order you want), and it's shorter to pronounce. However, cutting in stuff to pronounce means you need to memorize additionnal stuff in order to know the sense of what you're talking about. :p
This is somewhat true with Quebec's french, where we often use english words in our familiar conversations. :p Here's an example! "Vas-tu t'la fermer, ou faut-tu que j'te mettes du tape su' la bouche?" (Also note that the "verb-pronoun" is used mostly with "tu" or "il" (which becomes "y") which forces a yes / no answer . You could use "je", but that'd be asking yourself a question, and thus hardly counts ) :p
(for those wondering, a rough translation is : "Will you shut up, or do i have to put tape on your mouth?") |
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Valoyossa
Humanoid
Joined: Feb 21, 2010
Age: 26
Posts: 2287
Location: Freie Stadt Danzig
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| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| 7Theresa wrote: | Inversion. It's just cool. In English, you nearly always have subject – verb – object word order (SVO), e.g. "I love you." In German, word order can be changed (inverted): for example SVO/OVS/SVOV (yes, some verbs get split) in declarative sentences. Or if you want to lay special stress on something, you can often change the word order to your liking: "I don't like maths." can be Ich mag Mathe nicht. (SVO → "I like maths not.") or Mathe mag ich nicht. (OVS → "Maths like I not.")
One particularily funny thing is that declarative sentences (not questions!) can rarely begin with the verb – except in jokes.
Inversion gives you a lot of opportunity to make your writing more interesting or to stress something without relying on additional words (in writing) or intonation (in speech). It's something I like about German - when I'm writing in another language and can't use it, I really get frustrated sometimes. |
I like our inversion too. Thanks to cases and genders, we can put the words almost in random order and they still mean the same.
| 7Theresa wrote: | Prefixes. Many languages have them, I think. In German, they are mostly used to change the meanings of verbs and the nouns derived from them. Some common examples are be-, ver-, zu-, ab-, auf-. They are all short and mostly can't stand alone, but they can give a word a completely different meaning.
Just a few examples:
ziehen → to pull, to draw
abziehen → to detract
vorziehen → to prefer
aufziehen → to draw open
zuziehen → to draw tight, to move in
einziehen → to move in
beziehen → to draw (e.g. benefits), to put (pillowslips/sheets) on
And these are all seperate words that should not be mixed! |
It's really fascinating. My example in Polish:
iść → to go, to walk
dojść → to arrive, to reach a destination, to get (into power), to come (to conclusion), to have an orgasm
najść → to come over, to overlap
obejść → to go around, to bypass
odejść → to go away, to leave
podejść → to approach, to come up to, to trick somebody
pójść → to go somewhere
przejść → to go through, to pass, to cross, to convert, to transform, to permeate
przyjść → to come
rozejść → to disperse, to dismiss, to break up
ujść → to escape, to get away with something, to flow into (river into sea)
wejść → to enter
wyjść → to go out, to leave, to come out
zajść → to set (sun, moon), to occur, to go somewhere, to reach, to become pregnant
zejść → to go down, to dismount, to come off
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AngelKnight
Phoenix
Joined: May 04, 2011
Posts: 748
Location: This is not my home; I'm just passing through
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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When using pronouns in Japanese, it's useful to think of pronouns as being not just pronouns, but also as titles. This is why a speaker has to choose which pronouns to use, or make a point of avoiding them, when communicating in the language.
This may well hold true for many or all of the East Asian languages. I know it's a useful mindset for Japanese and Korean. |
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Nordlys
Toucan
Joined: Apr 21, 2011
Posts: 298
Location: Italy, Lombardy region
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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In italian the pronunce of 'gli' can be tricky. Somethimes it is phonetic, othertimes no.
When i started to study norwegian i understood that my language is not as phonetic as i though
For example the word 'Cielo' must be read 'Chelo' and not 'Chielo'
And there are not symbols that show how to pronunce correctly letters like S, Z, E, I, O, U
My first language is pretty easy to learn for english speakers, but the letter R is difficult to pronunce.
A characteristic of my language is also in verbs.
In englis, and in amny other languages, you have to say, for example
I go
You go
he/she/it goes etc...
In italian is not necessary to say
Io vado
tu vai
lui/lei va
but only
vado
vai
va
andiamo
andate
vanno
because all verbs are different for people
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hans66
Toucan
Joined: Jul 04, 2010
Age: 46
Posts: 298
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| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:23 am Post subject: |
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Let's compare languages and look at the word order in subphrases:
1. English: The man is ill - I say that the man is ill. No change of the word order in English.
2. Esperanto: La viro estas malsana - Mi diras ke la viro estas malsana. No change, same as in English.
3. Dutch: De man is ziek - Ik zeg dat de man ziek is. Change of word order in Dutch.
4. German: Der Mann ist krank. Ich sage, dass der Mann krank ist. The same as in Dutch.
5. Afrikaans: Die man is siek - Ek sê, dat die man siek is. The same as in German and Dutch.
But in subphrases the word order in German is stricter than in Dutch.
1. Dutch:
- Ik zeg dat ik heb gewerkt;
- Ik zeg dat ik gewerkt heb.
Both phrases are allowed. They both mean: I say I worked.
2. German:
- *Ich sage dass ich habe gearbeitet;
- Ich sage dass ich gearbeitet habe.
AFAIK, only the second German phrase is correct.
Whether you are free to play with the word order depends of the meaning of the participle:
1. Ik zeg dat hij is gestoord = I say that he has been disturbed (by someone);
2. Ik zeg dat hij gestoord is. This has two meanings: I say that he has been disturbed (by someone), and: I say that he is mentally challenged (having a disorder), but it is somewhat insulting. |
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Artros
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 646
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| hans66 wrote: | Let's compare languages and look at the word order in subphrases:
1. English: The man is ill - I say that the man is ill. No change of the word order in English.
2. Esperanto: La viro estas malsana - Mi diras ke la viro estas malsana. No change, same as in English.
3. Dutch: De man is ziek - Ik zeg dat de man ziek is. Change of word order in Dutch.
4. German: Der Mann ist krank. Ich sage, dass der Mann krank ist. The same as in Dutch.
5. Afrikaans: Die man is siek - Ek sê, dat die man siek is. The same as in German and Dutch.
But in subphrases the word order in German is stricter than in Dutch.
1. Dutch:
- Ik zeg dat ik heb gewerkt;
- Ik zeg dat ik gewerkt heb.
Both phrases are allowed. They both mean: I say I worked.
2. German:
- *Ich sage dass ich habe gearbeitet;
- Ich sage dass ich gearbeitet habe.
AFAIK, only the second German phrase is correct.
Whether you are free to play with the word order depends of the meaning of the participle:
1. Ik zeg dat hij is gestoord = I say that he has been disturbed (by someone);
2. Ik zeg dat hij gestoord is. This has two meanings: I say that he has been disturbed (by someone), and: I say that he is mentally challenged (having a disorder), but it is somewhat insulting. |
In Portuguese, you can leave out the subject in the second sentence:
O homem esta mal. Digo que esta mal.
Though if you wouldn't, it would be the same as in Esperanto and English.
I've studied Mandarin Chinese and found there to be some funny things in that particular language. For example, if you do something for a short time, you repeat the verb. For example, chi means "to eat," If you say chichi you mean "eat for a short while," akin to the Dutch "even."
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carturo222
Polymath wannabe
Joined: Aug 04, 2008
Age: 30
Posts: 1642
Location: Colombia
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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My mother tongue, Spanish, is supposed to follow the usual Romance SVO pattern, but a nice thing (that I suspect was borrowed from the Arabs when they conquered Spain for 8 centuries) is that many sentences can begin with the verb, or even with the object:
Ayer vino la policía = The police came yesterday, (lit. "Yesterday came the police").
A mí me llamó el profesor, pero a ti nadie = The teacher called me, but nobody called you, (lit. "To me to me called the teacher, but to you nobody").
Esto me lo dijo él = It was he who told me this, (lit. "This to me this said he").
Se te dieron instrucciones = You were given instructions, (lit. "<impersonal pronoun> to you gave instructions").
Me gusta que vayas tú y no él = I prefer you, not him, to go, (lit. "To me pleases that go you and not he").
Dice tu padre que se le perdió el libro que le prestó tu esposo = Your father says the book your husband lent him got lost, (lit. "Says your father that <impersonal pronoun> from him lost the book that to him lent your husband").
Also, some words can be omitted when there's a previous reference:
Me gusta más el gato pardo que el gris = I like the brown cat better than the gray one, (lit. "To me pleases more the cat brown than the gray").
Yo corrí, pero él no = I ran, but he didn't, (lit. "I ran, but he not").
And you may already know that double negation is mandatory in Spanish. It's totally legit to say Nadie fue ("Nobody went") and Nunca lo veremos ("We'll never see it"), but if you prefer to put the verb first, you MUST say No fue nadie and No lo veremos nunca. |
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TheWingman
Snowy Owl
Joined: Sep 02, 2011
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| FluffyDog wrote: | One of the things a German learning person once pointed out to me was how much we Germans like to string words together. His native Language was Portugese, so I guess they don't do it that much. But this guy actually liked it because he figured that way he would often learn two new words at the same time (the two words that the compound word was made of, you see...).
We really do that a lot. For example:
Taschenmesser
(pocketknife, derived from "Tasche" and "Messer")
Wahlpflichtfach
(a subject that can, but need not be chosen, as long as another suitable subject is taken in that case. derived from "Wahlpflicht" und "Fach". "Wahlpflicht" itself is a compound word made of "Wahl" and "Pflicht".)
Wasserstoff
(hydrogen, derived from "Wasser" and "Stoff". Many other chemical elements are named likewise, For example "Sauerstoff", oxygen, from "Säure".)
Many of our compound words are used as a true unit and people do not even consider them as compounded anymore. In some cases they will not even be able to identify the original words without a bit of thinking. |
This is only a written feature. When spoken, it doesn't matter how many words are there.
In French, le petit chien (the little dog) could as well be written le petitchien, the spoken language would still behave the same way. |
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TheWingman
Snowy Owl
Joined: Sep 02, 2011
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:38 am Post subject: |
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Sometimes I come accross words with no exact translation in English, here are some of those.
Troué: With holes in it. Un pantalon troué - trousers with holes in it.
En travaux - renovation, construction, all kind of public work taking place
à la : l'homme à la cigarette - the man with a cigarette. But it means the the man is not just with a cigarette, he is also smoking it, it more accurate.
déplacer - to displace but you nearly never use this word in english butI find it very handy.
Déménager, emménager - to move house, to settle in a new house.
the complements "en" and "y" - J'en prend note : I take note about it.
J'y serai - I will be there
They stand for something which have been stated before. I find them powerfull to use. |
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phil777
Phoenix
Joined: May 21, 2008
Age: 26
Posts: 4825
Location: Montreal, Québec
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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^ That's what happens when a germanic language (Frankish) meets Latin, you get French over a couple o' years. :p Musn't help that the British took about what, 29% of french words over time? Including Old french words that we stopped using? Like "toast"?
And yeah, in french, what's important is what you say and the order (kind of), not how you say it because the meaning resides in the words themselves, so even with a few mistakes (pronouncing the "t"'s at the end of the -ent or the like, unless it's on an adjective where the female gender could be applied), we can still pretty much understand what you're trying to say. ^.- Otherwise, we'll just laugh at you.  And maybe try to help you out by pointing out your mistakes (with as much respect as can be given. ) |
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HairlessAlbinoCat
Sea Gull
Joined: Aug 26, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Nordlys wrote: | In italian the pronunce of 'gli' can be tricky. Somethimes it is phonetic, othertimes no.
When i started to study norwegian i understood that my language is not as phonetic as i though
For example the word 'Cielo' must be read 'Chelo' and not 'Chielo'
And there are not symbols that show how to pronunce correctly letters like S, Z, E, I, O, U
My first language is pretty easy to learn for english speakers, but the letter R is difficult to pronunce.
A characteristic of my language is also in verbs.
In englis, and in amny other languages, you have to say, for example
I go
You go
he/she/it goes etc...
In italian is not necessary to say
Io vado
tu vai
lui/lei va
but only
vado
vai
va
andiamo
andate
vanno
because all verbs are different for people |
I didn't know (which is no surprise given that I don't really know Italian) that in Italian, the Spanish etymologically equivalent verbs "Ir" (to go) and "andar" (to go about) overlapped. Does that mean that they are not verbs by themselves?
What I found curious is that in Spanish the verb conjugation for "andar" /ahnDAHR/ in some cases can be used instead of the one for "ir" /eer/.
For example the imperative form for the 2nd person "vos" /vohs/ (you) can be "andá" /ahnDAH/ instead of the nonsensical "i" /ee/ (given that the conjugation for "vos" is directly related to the one for "vosotros" /vohSOHtrohs/, imperative of which is "id" /eed/ thus the imperative of "vos" should be "i" /ee/ but that is just nonsense).
Well I digressed, what I was going for is if those examples you gave:
| Quote: | vado
vai
va
andiamo
andate
vanno |
are like that because of overlapping or because they are not verbs by themselves as in Spanish? or were they ever? |
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HairlessAlbinoCat
Sea Gull
Joined: Aug 26, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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BTW I know that the Italian sound -gli- is the same as the -ll- in Spanish and sometimes it can be tricky to pronounce. Do you have any example in Italian, where it is trickier to pronounce the -gli-
In Spanish it is most complicated when it follows an -i- like in "pollito" (chick-let), its like the -ll- kind of clashes with the -i- it follows which is no surprise since, if I may do an analogy, the Italian -gn- sound is to a really really fast -nyy- followed by a vowel (like a much faster version of the English word Canyon), what the -gli- sound is to a really really fast -lyy- (I have no example here).
But it is obviously trickier when it follows an -i- since that would mean a really really fast -lyyi- all in a fluid syllable with single motion where only two sounds ought to be identifiable, the single consonant and the single vowel. |
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HairlessAlbinoCat
Sea Gull
Joined: Aug 26, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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Talking about the order or sentences, in Spanish I love you can be expressed as
[1]<<(yo) te amo>>
[2]<<te amo (yo)>>
[3]<<(yo) ámote>>
[4]<<ámote (yo)>>
All four forms express the same but [2] and [4] happen to coincide with how a question is technically to be arranged but the tone is what really would make it a question.
In a sort of speak [2]<<?te amo yo?>> and [4]<<?ámote yo?>> are much more of a question than [1]<<?(yo) te amo?>> and [3]<<?(yo) ámote?>>
[3] and [4] - When the personal pronoun "te" gets postponed to the verb it becomes an enclitic, meaning that it becomes one with the verb,
so "ámote" (never "amo te") means I love you, in a single word
They are not all used in equal proportions but they are all correct. |
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HairlessAlbinoCat
Sea Gull
Joined: Aug 26, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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Now if one wanted to be even more emphatic, I love you could be phrased as << Yo te amo a tí >> (I thee love to thou)
And that could be arranged as
[1] Yo te amo a ti / Yo ámote a ti (I thee love to thou / I love-thee to thou)
[2] Yo a ti te amo / Yo a ti ámote (I to thou thee love / I to thou love-thee)
[3] A ti yo te amo / A ti yo ámote (to thou I thee love / to thou I love-thee)
[4] Te amo yo a ti / Ámote yo a ti (thee love I to thou / love-thee I to thou)
[5] A ti te amo yo / A ti ámote yo (to thou thee love I / to thou love-thee I)
(I thought it would be easier to understand if I used thou and thee, instead of you and you)
Now some personal subjective opinions of mine:
[1] sounds more emphatic
I could only translate the feeling as: It is me who loves you
[2] not only to me sound more emphatic but more romantic, kind of like the mere arrangement of the words clicked in to a formula filled with true meaningfulness -  -
I could only translate the feeling as: It is you who I love
[3] Same as the second one but it also appears to have a sense of remind-full-ness to it, almost as if the person being loved needed an emotional encouragement
I could only translate the feeling as: It's you!, who I love
[4] this is the arrangement for a question but like I posted above it is really the tone what makes a question but in my opinion this arrangement not only pops as a question, with lack of question marks and all but it also seems to be embedded with an inherit doubtful questioning.
I could only translate the feeling as: Me!, love you?
[5]This one is also technically the arrangement for a question but this one kind of sounds like a reminding order
I could only translate the feeling as: You are loved only by me
Last edited by HairlessAlbinoCat on Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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