ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29314
Location: New Jersey
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 Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Will the US be like a rerun of the fall of the Roman Emp |
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| Invader wrote: | | Alienboy wrote: | | I'm sure if the US fell or something this serious happened...who knows...Asia might not even feel the need to study American English anymore? I could always fake a British accent haha! |
Speaking of British accents... Didn't the British empire collapse too? It's certainly not what it once was.
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The British Empire wore away and deflated. But the culture and civilization did not collapse. And there were few or no barbarians at the gates.
ruveyn |
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WorldsEdge
Deinonychus
Joined: Dec 14, 2009
Age: 49
Posts: 385
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:43 am Post subject: Re: Will the US be like a rerun of the fall of the Roman Emp |
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| Invader wrote: |
Why wait? Why don't you just do that now?
It's already the way the world works now, and always will be, so nothing will have changed after the collapse other than the level of safety that you have while you're trying to worm your way into the system. Right now it's awkward and uncomfortable, but later one false step will get you lynched by an angry mob.
It would be easier to do your worming while the mob is still being forced to behave. |
Funny, that's exactly what I thought when reading Alienboy's response...and I even have a foretaste of how that would work, from personal experience.
I'd never had many friends as a kid, and by the time 8th grade rolled around the few I had, had all pretty much either moved away or dropped me. So I was alone. And the sort of individual who gets their rocks off with bullying can somehow smell people like me out like a shark does chum in the water from miles away. I have no clue how they (both bullies and sharks) do it, but they're both frighteningly efficient at doing what they do.
When the harassment started, I first tried my own variant of appeasement, which of course was an utter disaster. Some kids who might have also been in my shoes could make jokes about it, and fob off the bullies that way. (I believe Chris Rock has actually commented something along the lines that that was how he got his start in stand up comedy, by dealing with bullies through humor.) But I'm in no way capable of going that route, either then or now.
So, anyways...after about two weeks I dug in my heels and started fighting back, even being the first one to throw a punch in response to nothing but verbal insults. And did I ever get the crap kicked out of me at first. But I suppose where Chris Rock learned how to be a comedian, I learned how to take a punch and keep going. Never really learned how to throw one all that well, in all honesty, but I sure as hell learned to ignore pain, blood and to never, ever, ever stay down if I went down. And after about two months of this, more of the fights wound up as "draws," not "losses." (Wins? Maybe one or two. At the absolute most.)
Not because I did anything special, just that I'd be on my feet and standing my ground when the other guy broke it off, which I NEVER did, even with a black eye and a bloody nose. Sometimes I'd even taunt the guy who had basically just put me through a meat shredder, when he walked away. Can't exactly give the story a happy ending, but I guess the kids picking on me (and it was more than one group) decided just about simultaneously all concluded that I was more trouble than I was worth, and went off in search of easier prey. (Which I know for a fact they found.) And I was back to being left alone.
Anyway, what ties this stroll down memory lane to your response? This: the code of conduct at my school -- as defined by the students -- considered one on one fights perfectly fine, but NOT two or three or four on one. I can't think of one instance of that happening, not just to me, but to anyone who went to my school. The rule was unspoken, but seemingly written in stone. In fact, in one case I was "involved" with one member of a pair of twins and actually started to gain the upper hand. His brother, when he saw this happening, did try to jump into the fight...but he was actually restrained by two of his friends (they sure as hell weren't mine) from intervening, who looked at this twin like he was masturbating in public. Pure disgust. Certainly not for my sake, but over the fact that this "code" was almost violated.
And what I've sometimes wondered...what would have happened to me in a school with an ethos less like High Noon and more like Lord of the Flies? Or if this unspoken rule had somehow been abandoned? These were groups of kids, and the only thing that kept them away from me while fighting their friend was an internalized code. Drop that, and at three or four or five to one I'd have been nothing but a smear on the pavement, certainly utilizing the tactics I unconsciously adopted.
Funny, I don't think I've even thought about those few months in a decade or so. But when I read what Alienboy said, it was like *ding*, and that bit of 1979-80 rose like scum from my subconscious to full-blown memory. Anyway, memo to Alienboy....be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
_________________
"The man who has fed the chicken every day throughout its life at last wrings its neck instead, showing that more refined views as to the uniformity of nature would have been useful to the chicken." — Bertrand Russell |
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anarkhos
Velociraptor
Joined: Nov 30, 2005
Posts: 477
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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No, it's a rerun of the Spanish Empire.
Spain was once the economic powerhouse of Europe. They produced the most sophisticated goods, the best steel, and ruled the seas. They then found gold in the new world and it completely destroyed spanish industry. Instead of making goods for trade, they paid for everything with loot from the new world. In the end, they defaulted four times in a row and became the poor men of western europe to this day.
The US was the economic powerhouse of the world. They produced the most sophisticated goods, the best steel, and ruled the seas. Their currency was the world's reserve, taken as good as gold even after 1971, and printed it until local industry was destroyed. In the end we will default and become the poor men of the west unless we learn the lesson herein.
My guess is we won't. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12756
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| anarkhos wrote: | No, it's a rerun of the Spanish Empire.
Spain was once the economic powerhouse of Europe. They produced the most sophisticated goods, the best steel, and ruled the seas. They then found gold in the new world and it completely destroyed spanish industry. Instead of making goods for trade, they paid for everything with loot from the new world. In the end, they defaulted four times in a row and became the poor men of western europe to this day.
The US was the economic powerhouse of the world. They produced the most sophisticated goods, the best steel, and ruled the seas. Their currency was the world's reserve, taken as good as gold even after 1971, and printed it until local industry was destroyed. In the end we will default and become the poor men of the west unless we learn the lesson herein.
My guess is we won't. |
On top of that, Spain had engaged in non-stop (religious) war against the Protestant states of Europe, which left them militarily and economically spent. Kind of reminds me of what had, until recently, appeared to be very much like our seemingly endless conflicts in the Middle East and Central Asia.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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anarkhos
Velociraptor
Joined: Nov 30, 2005
Posts: 477
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | | On top of that, Spain had engaged in non-stop (religious) war... |
A non-warfaring empire would be a contradiction in terms |
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Biokinetica
Toucan
Joined: Dec 09, 2010
Age: 24
Posts: 266
Location: Vulcan
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| anarkhos wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | On top of that, Spain had engaged in non-stop (religious) war... |
A non-warfaring empire would be a contradiction in terms |
War is something that describes the human condition. Not the political construct. One nation can be granted inhabited land through a trade agreement and legitimately declare itself an "empire". War is not necessary. |
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:59 am Post subject: |
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Can't say I would be too terribly upset if it did collapse like the roman empire did the system we have really does not mean a whole lot to me, and I'm just being honest.
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It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29314
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Sweetleaf wrote: | | Can't say I would be too terribly upset if it did collapse like the roman empire did the system we have really does not mean a whole lot to me, and I'm just being honest. |
The Roman State did not collapse as in crash boom. It petered out.
ruveyn |
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shrox
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 12, 2011
Posts: 3254
Location: OK let's go.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| anarkhos wrote: | No, it's a rerun of the Spanish Empire.
Spain was once the economic powerhouse of Europe. They produced the most sophisticated goods, the best steel, and ruled the seas. They then found gold in the new world and it completely destroyed spanish industry. Instead of making goods for trade, they paid for everything with loot from the new world. In the end, they defaulted four times in a row and became the poor men of western europe to this day.
The US was the economic powerhouse of the world. They produced the most sophisticated goods, the best steel, and ruled the seas. Their currency was the world's reserve, taken as good as gold even after 1971, and printed it until local industry was destroyed. In the end we will default and become the poor men of the west unless we learn the lesson herein.
My guess is we won't. |
Very astute. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29314
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| anarkhos wrote: | No, it's a rerun of the Spanish Empire.
Spain was once the economic powerhouse of Europe. They produced the most sophisticated goods, the best steel, and ruled the seas. They then found gold in the new world and it completely destroyed spanish industry. Instead of making goods for trade, they paid for everything with loot from the new world. In the end, they defaulted four times in a row and became the poor men of western europe to this day.
The US was the economic powerhouse of the world. They produced the most sophisticated goods, the best steel, and ruled the seas. Their currency was the world's reserve, taken as good as gold even after 1971, and printed it until local industry was destroyed. In the end we will default and become the poor men of the west unless we learn the lesson herein.
My guess is we won't. |
If the U.S. is to survive (and prosper) it must restore much of its home productive capacity and it has to pay down the long term debt. The debt has got to be shrunk and eventually eliminated. The only debt that can be permit is relative short term debt that is required for start up or expansion capital in productive business. Such debt can be retired in short order by the production that borrowed capital can engender. Government debt other than very short term debt has got to be done away with.
ruveyn |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29314
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Biokinetica wrote: | | anarkhos wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | On top of that, Spain had engaged in non-stop (religious) war... |
A non-warfaring empire would be a contradiction in terms |
War is something that describes the human condition. Not the political construct. One nation can be granted inhabited land through a trade agreement and legitimately declare itself an "empire". War is not necessary. |
Give some historical examples, please.
ruveyn |
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Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 5111
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:29 am Post subject: |
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Empires fall from within. The main cause is when The State, the means of power, develops other goals than the Nation, the economic benefit of the People.
America is past there, the needs of the industries producing materials for war, were used to do some flag waving, followed by a series of unfunded wars, which were used by the bankers to fund the purchase and export of most other industry.
Now the People are stuck with paying the interest on a $15 Trillion dollar debt that was run up for the benefit of Private Interests.
That is ten times the income of the government, they have been overspending income by a Trillion a year, and in a little over a decade have created an unsupportable debt burden.
This has replaced the National Debt, the paid for retirement of the War Babies, which is now coming due. 10,000 a day retiring now.
There is no way to pay the domestic obligations of government, and even maintain debt service on the National Debt. There is no way for the Government to continue other than running up the debt.
It started a while back, The Superpower that did not pay for, Health, Education, Welfare of the People, and now the retirement system.
These are the Primary Functions of Government.
That they had to for energy security is a lie, the Trillions spent to overthrow Iraq which only produces a million barrels a day, $100 Million, a Billion in ten days, a Trillion in 10,000 days. A Trillion is 30 years production, we spent several. The oil still sells at world market price, just as it did under Saddam, before Sanctions. $13 a barrel.
Terrorists is another lie, Reagan and Ollie North admitted to funding Osama, supporting terror against the Russians in Afganistan.
Currently it is public knowledge that the terrorists invading Syria are trained, supported, armed, from US bases in Turkey.
If you think this was for Freedom, liberating people, nation building, take your next vacation in Bagdad. You will find out how free you are when trying to board a plane in the US.
An American Spring would result in Libya, Restoring the economy costs more than we have, retiring debt calls for triple taxes.
Providing the People with the basic services of government, Health, Education, Retirement, will cost more.
Abolishing government, making me Dictator, taxing net worth, it would still take decades.
I blame one Minority, Congress. Their retirement should be to be kept naked in cages in the National Zoo, and have to perform for peanuts. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29314
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Inventor wrote: |
I blame one Minority, Congress. Their retirement should be to be kept naked in cages in the National Zoo, and have to perform for peanuts. |
Strict term limitation would also work. We have to do away with the class of professional politicians for life. A pre-requisite for hold office should be five years experience as an independent business man or a worker at the real job where performance counts
ruveyn |
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | Can't say I would be too terribly upset if it did collapse like the roman empire did the system we have really does not mean a whole lot to me, and I'm just being honest. |
The Roman State did not collapse as in crash boom. It petered out.
ruveyn |
Hmm well then on second thoughts maybe the collapse of the roman empire is a little soft for what i hope happens to this system.
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It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
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nordo
Butterfly
Joined: Dec 27, 2008
Age: 49
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:15 pm Post subject: Fall of the American Empire |
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| I'm looking back on the fall of previous empires, and we do have much in common as a trend in the US. But let us remember that several factors are causing a much more rapid decline now, such as IT and the modernity paradigm. Power and control have been made accessible to Non-Western nations with a technology that requires a priesthood of programmers, all of them for hire. The barbarians are indeed at the gate, waiting for one of us to blink.... |
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