Rauhiss
Raven
Joined: Mar 26, 2012
Age: 21
Posts: 100
|
 Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:08 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
You completely misunderstood my comparison. Intentionally, I expect.
The point I was making wasn't that ATM and automatic teller machine were different.
My point was that it's easier to use the words people understand. |
|
| Back to top |
|
CrazyCatLord
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 25, 2011
Posts: 2177
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: A Rant |
|
|
| starkid wrote: | | CrazyCatLord wrote: |
And you are mixing up gender roles and gender identity, imho. |
I have been waiting to find out the meaning of "gender identity." Will you enlighten me? |
Your gender identity is the sexual aspect of your mental self-image or body image. Most people aren't aware that they have a gender identity in addition to their biological sex, because the two are usually identical. But the existence of a gender identity is undeniably evident in people with GID (gender identity disorder). Differences between sex and GI can cause extreme distress, to the point that many children with GID threaten or attempt to mutilate themselves.
I've talked to a trans woman in Second Life who compared GID to depersonalization disorder (DPD). People who suffer from DPD feel that random parts of their anatomy are foreign objects that don't belong to their body. They might look at their arm with utter horror and think "this is not my arm, I don't want this thing on me". That's exactly how many trans people feel about their breasts or genitals. They are foreign objects that aren't part of their body image and simply don't belong there, whereas other parts that should be there, according to their mental self-image, are inexplicably missing.
Techn0teen's phantom limb comparison rings very true in this context. Phantom limb sensations have been described by people who were born without limbs and had never experienced what it's like to have that missing arm or leg. In very much the same way, a penis or a pair of breasts can be a part of a person's self-image, despite the fact that the person doesn't possess these anatomical characteristics. People with GID literally have a brain that belongs to the opposite sex.
This has nothing to do with gender roles. I've always rejected male gender expectations. I'm very emotional, I cry when I watch sad movies and romantic comedies, I have no interest in sports, cars or technology, and I've experimented with crossdressing when I was younger. I feel very restricted by male fashion and dress conventions, and I always pick female characters in computer games because I like to wear pretty clothes. And yet my gender identity is 100% male. When I think about sex, I think about thrusting instead of being penetrated. And if a crazy person came at me with a pair of scissors, my first impulse would be to shield my genitals instead of my face. My mind is very certain that the dangly bits between my legs are not only supposed to be there, but are of vital interest to me and even more important than my hands or my eyes. That's gender identity in a nutshell. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Bun
Bunnymen
Joined: Jan 09, 2012
Posts: 3250
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I'd say gender neutral. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bun wrote: | | I'd say gender neutral. |
I agree with Bun  |
|
| Back to top |
|
Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah gender neutral is quite likely, I just don't know how to determine if that's all it is or if I feel more like a male than a female psychologically. Because I've only ever tried just accepting the female gender identity and then just not conforming to that at all since it did not feel like me. But I am kind of worried about how people would react if I wanted to give identifying as a male a try.........I don't know I've heard you have to experience different things to really be sure how you feel about it.
its just confusing I guess.......and I don't want to go claiming a title that doesn't fit before I am sure about things.
_________________
It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
|
| Back to top |
|
HairlessAlbinoCat
Sea Gull
Joined: Aug 26, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 202
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I don't know if it has been suggested, I don't want to read the whole thread but how about an "Androgyne", I define my self as one. Also for your asexuality there is this site called asexuality.org it is filled with Aspies as well |
|
| Back to top |
|
Daedelus1138
Blue Jay
Joined: Oct 29, 2010
Age: 37
Posts: 80
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:16 am Post subject: Re: What is this called? |
|
|
| You could just realize you are a person with Asperger's and gender dysphoria is common to anybody with Asperger's? (after all I was born male and have similar feelings about being male) If you just let go of worrying about labels, it all becomes intuitive. In the end, you are what you are, and no label will change that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:30 am Post subject: Re: What is this called? |
|
|
| Daedelus1138 wrote: | How about instead of over-analyzing this, you just realize you are a person with Asperger's and gender dysphoria is common to anybody with Asperger's? (after all I was born male and have similar feelings about being male) If you just let go of worrying about labels, it all becomes intuitive. In the end, you are what you are, and no label will change that.
Experience is the only teacher... try out different things and do what feels right for you. |
Well I don't know if it is gender dysphoria, I would have to look more into that to even be sure. Also I don't feel I am really over-analyzing it, I could be though but the main thing is I just want to understand myself I guess. The first time I even thought about any of this was when I was 15, and kept getting ' are you a boy or girl?' from people then I just kinda tried not thinking about it or anything but yeah clearly that didn't really work....But yeah that is what I am thinking the only way to really know is to try things and see what feels comfortable
_________________
It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Rauhiss
Raven
Joined: Mar 26, 2012
Age: 21
Posts: 100
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Here's the thing.
You don't HAVE to be a boy or a girl. I mean, anatomically, you're male or female or herm/inter/whatevs. Everyone is.
But what you are doesn't have to have anything to do with who you are.
You can just be you.
And anyone who doesn't like it can go jump in a lake. |
|
| Back to top |
|
starkid
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 10, 2012
Age: 32
Posts: 730
Location: California Bay Area
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: A Rant |
|
|
| CrazyCatLord wrote: |
Your gender identity is the sexual aspect of your mental self-image or body image. Most people aren't aware that they have a gender identity in addition to their biological sex, because the two are usually identical. |
All I can say to that is, where is the proof that everyone has one? And is that a psychological claim or a neurological claim?
| Quote: |
People with GID literally have a brain that belongs to the opposite sex.
|
Again, where is the proof? What you are saying is not actually possible because brains don't have a sex! It's bodies that have sex. How many times do I have to repeat it? It's like saying someone has the hair of the opposite sex, or the nose of the opposite sex. No amount of features of the mind that are typical of the opposite sex make the mind "belong to the opposite sex." There is no aspect, or group of aspects, of the mind that anyone can point to and say, "oh yes, that is definitely a male mind," especially if it is something that a female
has experienced! If females have the experience of phantom penii and/or whatever else may go with GID, then there is no reason to call that experience having a mind that "belongs to the opposite sex" (male) because the thoughts and experiences are occurring in the mind of a female! They may be extremely atypical female mental experiences, but they are certainly not exclusively male mental experiences if a female human being is having them.
So these people with GID you mentioned, JUST BY EXISTING, they prove that there is no such thing as a male brain or a female brain. If there was really such a thing as a male brain, then only males would have it (and same with the female brain), otherwise, it makes no sense to call it a "male" brain...except in the case where the intention is to conflate the idea that males TYPICALLY have a certain mental experience with the idea that they ALWAYS have a certain mental experience and women don't, thus reinforcing the status quo like I've already mentioned before, blah blah blah.
Of course, by "brain," I assume that you mean "mind" and not physical brain matter from the way you are describing it.
| Quote: |
And yet my gender identity is 100% male. When I think about sex, I think about thrusting instead of being penetrated. |
More gender role stereotypes. Not all males like to thrust during sex (or think about it), and plenty of females do, without having a male "gender identity." The issue with penetration is similar.
_________________
Assume nothing, question everything.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
CrazyCatLord
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 25, 2011
Posts: 2177
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:46 pm Post subject: Re: A Rant |
|
|
| starkid wrote: | | What you are saying is not actually possible because brains don't have a sex! It's bodies that have sex. |
You can repeat that as often as you want, but that won't make it true. There is a number of structural differences between the male and the female brain. Let me do a Google search for you:
https://www.google.com/search?q=differences%20male%20and%20female%20brain
^ Here you'll find dozens upon dozens of articles and papers on neurological gender differences. I know that it's currently fashionable to think men and women are identical in all regards, including brain anatomy. But that is of course utter nonsense. It should be self-evident to anybody with half a brain, no matter if a male or female one, that the brains of both sexes have to be different, since the brain controls everything from endocrine function and hormone levels to reproductive behavior.
| Quote: | | If females have the experience of phantom penii and/or whatever else may go with GID, then there is no reason to call that experience having a mind that "belongs to the opposite sex" (male) because the thoughts and experiences are occurring in the mind of a female! |
The sex of the body and the sex of the brain (a.k.a. gender identity) don't have to be identical, as I've already pointed out. Which explains GID. Research has shown that gays and lesbians also possess a neurological anatomy which resembles that of the opposite sex (link).
| Quote: | | So these people with GID you mentioned, JUST BY EXISTING, they prove that there is no such thing as a male brain or a female brain. |
Actually, the existence of people with GID proves that brains indeed have a sex (which sometimes doesn't match a person's reproductive system). If there was no neurological sex (gender identity), there would be no GID.
| Quote: | | Of course, by "brain," I assume that you mean "mind" and not physical brain matter from the way you are describing it. |
When I say brain, I mean brain. You know, the part of the body that controls thoughts, emotions and behavior, among other things. It is very much a physical organ, and there is nothing non-physical connected to our bodies that does any thinking. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: A Rant |
|
|
| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | starkid wrote: | | What you are saying is not actually possible because brains don't have a sex! It's bodies that have sex. |
You can repeat that as often as you want, but that won't make it true. There is a number of structural differences between the male and the female brain. Let me do a Google search for you:
https://www.google.com/search?q=differences%20male%20and%20female%20brain
^ Here you'll find dozens upon dozens of articles and papers on neurological gender differences. I know that it's currently fashionable to think men and women are identical in all regards, including brain anatomy. But that is of course utter nonsense. It should be self-evident to anybody with half a brain, no matter if a male or female one, that the brains of both sexes have to be different, since the brain controls everything from endocrine function and hormone levels to reproductive behavior.
Beat me to it, there are differences in brain functioning...and it so happens some people with a more male functioning brain might be born with a female body...or maybe their brain has more of an inbetween function...if one can physically be both genders which happens I imagine one could also have a brain that way but without the physical abnormalities to go with it.
| Quote: | | If females have the experience of phantom penii and/or whatever else may go with GID, then there is no reason to call that experience having a mind that "belongs to the opposite sex" (male) because the thoughts and experiences are occurring in the mind of a female! |
The sex of the body and the sex of the brain (a.k.a. gender identity) don't have to be identical, as I've already pointed out. Which explains GID. Research has shown that gays and lesbians also possess a neurological anatomy which resembles that of the opposite sex (link).
| Quote: | | So these people with GID you mentioned, JUST BY EXISTING, they prove that there is no such thing as a male brain or a female brain. |
Actually, the existence of people with GID proves that brains indeed have a sex (which sometimes doesn't match a person's reproductive system). If there was no neurological sex (gender identity), there would be no GID.
| Quote: | | Of course, by "brain," I assume that you mean "mind" and not physical brain matter from the way you are describing it. |
When I say brain, I mean brain. You know, the part of your body that does all the thinking (among other things). There is no separate mind, psyche, soul, or whatever other unscientific nonsense uneducated people have come up with in the past. |
Pretty much right on with everything else as well, this is even what I learned when I took sociology before dropping out of college.
_________________
It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
|
| Back to top |
|
CrazyCatLord
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 25, 2011
Posts: 2177
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:18 pm Post subject: Re: A Rant |
|
|
| Sweetleaf wrote: | | Beat me to it, there are differences in brain functioning...and it so happens some people with a more male functioning brain might be born with a female body...or maybe their brain has more of an inbetween function...if one can physically be both genders which happens I imagine one could also have a brain that way but without the physical abnormalities to go with it. |
That's a good point. There are countless genes that code for sexual characteristics, and intersex conditions show that these genes can code for two different sexes in the same person. If a person can be born with both male and female reproductive organs, the same can happen in terms of neurological development. A brain can have mixed gender traits, as well as a gender that doesn't match the sex of the remaining body. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
