Joined: Jun 20, 2008 Age: 25 Posts: 12113 Location: La belle province
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:01 pm Post subject:
_________________ Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
It's interesting what most people thought this thread was saying: that Jesus wants us to hate.
The message of the thread is that the world hated Jesus.
The world didn't hate Jesus. When he was alive (assuming that he was a real person), the vast majority of the world was entirely unaware of his existence. The only people who hated him were the religious leaders of his country, who compelled the Roman authorities to arrest and execute him. According to the gospel stories anyway.
Those weren't the only people who hated him. And He was speaking of worldly people, who have the spirit of the world, and these people are spiritually the same everywhere on the planet.
This is an extreme black-and-white and us-versus-them world view. People either have the spirit of your brand of religion, or they have the spirit of the world, which is evil, sinful and immoral and deserves no consideration. The latter are an extremely broad group that probably includes feminists, atheists, liberals, all the other world religions, and ultimately anyone who might disagree with your personal opinion.
Well, when it comes right down to it, people are divided into two groups. Jesus did say: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.” (Matt 12:30)
And...
Quote:
From Matt 10:
32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.
33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to turn
‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
37 Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”
My point is to analyze, as correctly as I can, what Jesus meant, and that these are verses that often get pushed by the wayside and avoided, when, really, all those who believe Jesus is God, as I do, need to pay close attention to everything He said, not just the pleasant things. I also think I make a point that even an atheist or agnostic would agree with: those who follow Jesus should be sure who Jesus is in all His doctrines. Right? Some people worship a different Jesus -- one remanufactured to be different than the one in the Bible.
I will deal with the part of your post I did not quote by simply saying that you are throwing a lot of unfounded assumptions my way in trying to define who I am, and I've met the kind of people you describe, and I disagree with them myself, and think they are wrong-headed. I would rather you ask information about me than try to tell me who I am, when we know virtually nothing about one another. Especially if we are going to have a continuing dialogue. _________________ Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
The world is actually a beautiful place, its a shame you guys think it's evil.....I mean I certainly don't like society but I don't see what is so evil about things like nature.
Who said anything about nature? This is about humanity's attitudes and actions.
Well all those quotes referred to how evil the world is, I thought that meant the world in general. That said though wouldn't that be a reason to try and improve humanity rather than root for the destruction of it. Or is Christianity really about hate and superiority after all.
There is no rooting for its destruction. The point is it's destroying itself with its own evil.
The world isn't evil.......end of story.
Would you like the numbers of killings in the 20th century alone, the bloodiest in history by far? That came from how good-natured the world is, right? _________________ Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
Joined: Aug 12, 2011 Posts: 3254 Location: OK let's go.
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:27 pm Post subject:
Ragtime wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
It's interesting what most people thought this thread was saying: that Jesus wants us to hate.
The message of the thread is that the world hated Jesus.
The world didn't hate Jesus. When he was alive (assuming that he was a real person), the vast majority of the world was entirely unaware of his existence. The only people who hated him were the religious leaders of his country, who compelled the Roman authorities to arrest and execute him. According to the gospel stories anyway.
Those weren't the only people who hated him. And He was speaking of worldly people, who have the spirit of the world, and these people are spiritually the same everywhere on the planet.
This is an extreme black-and-white and us-versus-them world view. People either have the spirit of your brand of religion, or they have the spirit of the world, which is evil, sinful and immoral and deserves no consideration. The latter are an extremely broad group that probably includes feminists, atheists, liberals, all the other world religions, and ultimately anyone who might disagree with your personal opinion.
Well, when it comes right down to it, people are divided into two groups. Jesus did say: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.” (Matt 12:30)
And...
Quote:
From Matt 10:
32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.
33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to turn
‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
37 Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”
My point is to analyze, as correctly as I can, what Jesus meant, and that these are verses that often get pushed by the wayside and avoided, when, really, all those who believe Jesus is God, as I do, need to pay close attention to everything He said, not just the pleasant things. I also think I make a point that even an atheist or agnostic would agree with: those who follow Jesus should be sure who Jesus is in all His doctrines. Right? Some people worship a different Jesus -- one remanufactured to be different than the one in the Bible.
I will deal with the part of your post I did not quote by simply saying that you are throwing a lot of unfounded assumptions my way in trying to define who I am, and I've met the kind of people you describe, and I disagree with them myself, and think they are wrong-headed. I would rather you ask information about me than try to tell me who I am, when we know virtually nothing about one another. Especially if we are going to have a continuing dialogue.
Quoting scriptures that are unfamiliar to many and snipping them out of the context of the overall theme does not further any cause, expect to turn away those who give it a passing glance.
Speak boldly of your similarities and quietly of your differences.
Prickly, spikey things aren't often embraced.
Last edited by shrox on Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
It's interesting what most people thought this thread was saying: that Jesus wants us to hate.
The message of the thread is that the world hated Jesus.
The world didn't hate Jesus. When he was alive (assuming that he was a real person), the vast majority of the world was entirely unaware of his existence. The only people who hated him were the religious leaders of his country, who compelled the Roman authorities to arrest and execute him. According to the gospel stories anyway.
Those weren't the only people who hated him. And He was speaking of worldly people, who have the spirit of the world, and these people are spiritually the same everywhere on the planet.
What is so wrong with the world...or being worldly, what the hell does that even mean.
In short, it means not paying any attention to the God who created and loves you. _________________ Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
Well, when it comes right down to it, people are divided into two groups. Jesus did say: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.” (Matt 12:30)
If you're going to declare yourself in the right just because you believe correctly, perhaps you should reconsider the parable of the sheep and the goats (especially people who were surprised where they ended up), and nearly everything Jesus ever said to or about the Pharisees (who were rather theologically correct and followed their rules quite well). _________________ "A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton
It's interesting what most people thought this thread was saying: that Jesus wants us to hate.
The message of the thread is that the world hated Jesus.
The world didn't hate Jesus. When he was alive (assuming that he was a real person), the vast majority of the world was entirely unaware of his existence. The only people who hated him were the religious leaders of his country, who compelled the Roman authorities to arrest and execute him. According to the gospel stories anyway.
Those weren't the only people who hated him. And He was speaking of worldly people, who have the spirit of the world, and these people are spiritually the same everywhere on the planet.
What is so wrong with the world...or being worldly, what the hell does that even mean.
In short, it means not paying any attention to the God who created and loves you.
Right. The God who loves me so much that failure to worship him brings about an eternal punishment (death or hell, pick your poison) for a finite transgression. The God who loved his creation so much that he spent most of the Old Testament alternately scaring the pants off of his chosen people and selling them into slavery. The God who is so just that he sends an army of she-bears to devour children for mocking his prophet. The God that hardened the Pharoh's heart against Moses so he could drag out the plagues just a little bit longer - and for what, to prove a point? The God who tormented Job just to prove a point.
The one that fails to use his omnipotence to prevent evil - who, in fact, invented suffering personally as an infinite punishment for Adam and Eve's finite transgression. Who cursed Cain's entire line for the sins of its founder. Who hounded the sons of David for generations until the birth of Christ. Who condemns those who have never heard of him - who have never even had a chance to embrace the Word - to Hell.
Yeah. That God. See, this is why I'm an atheist - because if I found faith, I'd be forced to admit that God is a sadistic, immature, self-righteous jerk with a serious torture fetish and all the moral authority of a three-year-old. The fact that the intolerance and hostility preached in large parts of the New Testament are a step up for Him does not service Him well.
Call me when your God grows up. _________________ Et in Arcadia ego. - "Even in Arcadia, there am I."
Joined: Jan 07, 2011 Age: 23 Posts: 14869 Location: Somewhere in Colorado
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:52 pm Post subject:
Ragtime wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
The world is actually a beautiful place, its a shame you guys think it's evil.....I mean I certainly don't like society but I don't see what is so evil about things like nature.
Who said anything about nature? This is about humanity's attitudes and actions.
Well all those quotes referred to how evil the world is, I thought that meant the world in general. That said though wouldn't that be a reason to try and improve humanity rather than root for the destruction of it. Or is Christianity really about hate and superiority after all.
There is no rooting for its destruction. The point is it's destroying itself with its own evil.
The world isn't evil.......end of story.
Would you like the numbers of killings in the 20th century alone, the bloodiest in history by far? That came from how good-natured the world is, right?
And that proves that the entire world is evil? Also what about all the killings christians throughout history have participated in, Its not as though the history of your religion isn't filled with violence. _________________ It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream.
Joined: Jan 07, 2011 Age: 23 Posts: 14869 Location: Somewhere in Colorado
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:55 pm Post subject:
Ragtime wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
It's interesting what most people thought this thread was saying: that Jesus wants us to hate.
The message of the thread is that the world hated Jesus.
The world didn't hate Jesus. When he was alive (assuming that he was a real person), the vast majority of the world was entirely unaware of his existence. The only people who hated him were the religious leaders of his country, who compelled the Roman authorities to arrest and execute him. According to the gospel stories anyway.
Those weren't the only people who hated him. And He was speaking of worldly people, who have the spirit of the world, and these people are spiritually the same everywhere on the planet.
What is so wrong with the world...or being worldly, what the hell does that even mean.
In short, it means not paying any attention to the God who created and loves you.
I was created because my parents decided to have sex, that's about it...I see no reason I should view the entire world as evil just because a book says I should. Besides I would rather burn in hell then serve some selfish god who will doom you to torment for all eternity if you don't worship him...but somehow supposedly loves me. Its just not a healthy belief for me. _________________ It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream.
It's interesting what most people thought this thread was saying: that Jesus wants us to hate.
The message of the thread is that the world hated Jesus.
The world didn't hate Jesus. When he was alive (assuming that he was a real person), the vast majority of the world was entirely unaware of his existence. The only people who hated him were the religious leaders of his country, who compelled the Roman authorities to arrest and execute him. According to the gospel stories anyway.
Those weren't the only people who hated him. And He was speaking of worldly people, who have the spirit of the world, and these people are spiritually the same everywhere on the planet.
This is an extreme black-and-white and us-versus-them world view. People either have the spirit of your brand of religion, or they have the spirit of the world, which is evil, sinful and immoral and deserves no consideration. The latter are an extremely broad group that probably includes feminists, atheists, liberals, all the other world religions, and ultimately anyone who might disagree with your personal opinion.
Well, when it comes right down to it, people are divided into two groups. Jesus did say: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.” (Matt 12:30)
And...
Quote:
From Matt 10:
32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.
33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to turn
‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
37 Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”
My point is to analyze, as correctly as I can, what Jesus meant, and that these are verses that often get pushed by the wayside and avoided, when, really, all those who believe Jesus is God, as I do, need to pay close attention to everything He said, not just the pleasant things. I also think I make a point that even an atheist or agnostic would agree with: those who follow Jesus should be sure who Jesus is in all His doctrines. Right? Some people worship a different Jesus -- one remanufactured to be different than the one in the Bible.
I will deal with the part of your post I did not quote by simply saying that you are throwing a lot of unfounded assumptions my way in trying to define who I am, and I've met the kind of people you describe, and I disagree with them myself, and think they are wrong-headed. I would rather you ask information about me than try to tell me who I am, when we know virtually nothing about one another. Especially if we are going to have a continuing dialogue.
Quoting scriptures that are unfamiliar to many and snipping them out of the context of the overall theme does not further any cause, expect to turn away those who give it a passing glance.
Speak boldly of your similarities and quietly of your differences.
Prickly, spikey things aren't often embraced.
These are extremely important verses, in that they relate to eternal destiny. I took great effort to clearly explain what they mean as I understand them, and I continue to attempt further explanation in my follow-up posts, as do others. I am not ashamed of anything about Jesus Christ, including everything He said. He said the harsh-sounding things He said for a loving reason. And I don't believe in re-phrasing Jesus in order to try to achieve some superior, gentler style. He was gentle -- but those are the verses most people know. This thread is about His other sayings -- doctrines that are absolutely vital to life after death. _________________ Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
The world is actually a beautiful place, its a shame you guys think it's evil.....I mean I certainly don't like society but I don't see what is so evil about things like nature.
Who said anything about nature? This is about humanity's attitudes and actions.
Well all those quotes referred to how evil the world is, I thought that meant the world in general. That said though wouldn't that be a reason to try and improve humanity rather than root for the destruction of it. Or is Christianity really about hate and superiority after all.
There is no rooting for its destruction. The point is it's destroying itself with its own evil.
The world isn't evil.......end of story.
Would you like the numbers of killings in the 20th century alone, the bloodiest in history by far? That came from how good-natured the world is, right?
And that proves that the entire world is evil? Also what about all the killings christians throughout history have participated in, Its not as though the history of your religion isn't filled with violence.
You are right about that. It's a terrible thing that people claiming to be Christian perpetrated such horrible violence and murder at certain periods in history. But the New Testament they claimed to follow absolutely denied any such permission, and even told them to treat people exactly the opposite: with kindness. In fact, here is what they were supposed to be following: "...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23) And Jesus said: "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." (Jn 13:35) So, clearly, those "Christians" weren't Christians. It's a terrible thing, I absolutely agree. _________________ Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
Joined: Jun 20, 2008 Age: 25 Posts: 12113 Location: La belle province
Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:05 am Post subject:
Planet Ragtime, where Christians are Jews, Christians aren't Christians and Feminists roam the streets with clubs!!! _________________ Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
