| Jesus, Christians, and the world |
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Rocky
This dude is one hoopy frood!
Joined: May 02, 2008
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Location: Uhhh...Not Remulak
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 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:20 am Post subject: |
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| shrox wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | What is so wrong with the world...or being worldly, what the hell does that even mean. |
Being worldly literally means being attached to the things of the world. For modern times it's fast food, TV, trendy clothes and cars, consumerism in general, and owning things we are pained to get rid off. Think back to when Native American tribes dwelled in North America. Although they lived lives directly dependent upon the fruits of the Earth, they were not very worldly, and some were even tricked into trading large tracts of land for beads and trinkets.
Worldly can also be like modern day corporations, were destroying peoples lives is "nothing personal, just business". |
I am against all those things, and I am an atheist. I am not about to join the Amish, however. Jim Jones' followers also were reacting to modernity with a religious twist by following him to Guyana. I grew up during the seventies, when some tried joining communes as a secular alternative. I never did that either. Finding a balance is usually the best choice. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:35 am Post subject: |
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The world mentioned by Christ isn't literally the planet, but the human society, with all its cruelty, intolerance, and selfishness. Christ was telling his followers not to become part of that again.
Unfortunately, many Christian denominations today have tied themselves to worldly politics, and have taken up very UN-Christlike causes, such as supporting redistribution of wealth to the upper class, robbing the poor and down and out of social services they rely on, and supporting unjustifiable wars abroad, and even denying rights to unpopular segments of our society. Yes, I'm talking about evangelicals, and traditionalist Catholics (like "Frothy" Santorum), who have become the very part of the world Christ had warned his disciples about.
Unfortunately, right wing elements of my own Lutheran Church Missouri Synod can be added to that list, as they've in recent years have been crawling out of the woodwork, and it's genuinely PISSING ME OFF!!!!!!!!
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: | | Planet Ragtime, where Christians are Jews, Christians aren't Christians and Feminists roam the streets with clubs!!! |
I guess that's humorous, because it certainly isn't true. 
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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible. |
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Grebels
Toucan
Joined: Mar 06, 2012
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | The world mentioned by Christ isn't literally the planet, but the human society, with all its cruelty, intolerance, and selfishness. Christ was telling his followers not to become part of that again.
Unfortunately, many Christian denominations today have tied themselves to worldly politics, and have taken up very UN-Christlike causes, such as supporting redistribution of wealth to the upper class, robbing the poor and down and out of social services they rely on, and supporting unjustifiable wars abroad, and even denying rights to unpopular segments of our society. Yes, I'm talking about evangelicals, and traditionalist Catholics (like "Frothy" Santorum), who have become the very part of the world Christ had warned his disciples about.
Unfortunately, right wing elements of my own Lutheran Church Missouri Synod can be added to that list, as they've in recent years have been crawling out of the woodwork, and it's genuinely PISSING ME OFF!!!!!!!!
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Sounds like the antichrist taking his seat in the temple Bill. 2 Thess. 2:4 |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| Sweetleaf wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | CrazyCatLord wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | It's interesting what most people thought this thread was saying: that Jesus wants us to hate.
The message of the thread is that the world hated Jesus. |
The world didn't hate Jesus. When he was alive (assuming that he was a real person), the vast majority of the world was entirely unaware of his existence. The only people who hated him were the religious leaders of his country, who compelled the Roman authorities to arrest and execute him. According to the gospel stories anyway.
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Those weren't the only people who hated him. And He was speaking of worldly people, who have the spirit of the world, and these people are spiritually the same everywhere on the planet. |
What is so wrong with the world...or being worldly, what the hell does that even mean. |
In short, it means not paying any attention to the God who created and loves you. |
I was created because my parents decided to have sex, that's about it...I see no reason I should view the entire world as evil just because a book says I should. Besides I would rather burn in hell then serve some selfish god who will doom you to torment for all eternity if you don't worship him...but somehow supposedly loves me. Its just not a healthy belief for me. |
I could answer this, but frankly it's true that my life sucks too a lot of the time, so, if we're going to judge God by how good our lives are, then we're being self-oriented, rather than letting God be God and ourselves be His creatures (in other words, the servants that we are by virtue of being His creations). I mean, this isn't going to give you any comfort, but God isn't here to be our, as my friend says, "cosmic bellhop", waiting on us hand and foot. The crap He lets us go through are tests, and a mature attitude will realize that trials and tribulations are not God's hatred for us, but rather a maturing and purification process. The apostle Paul had a really rough life, yet praised God during it. You can either think he was being insane for doing that, or that he simply saw that "being worthy to suffer for Christ", as he put it, was an honor. This probably totally turns you off all the more, but I'm not going to sugarcoat it. You can find a church that sugarcoats things and makes you feel good with pleasant deceit -- try the Unitarians -- but personally I find the truth more liberating in the long term, even if often more painful to focus on in the short term. That's pretty much all I can say. If it's all about what God can do for you, you're missing the big picture. If, as you said, you'd prefer living in Hell, I hope you know what you're getting into. 
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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible. |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
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Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | The world mentioned by Christ isn't literally the planet, but the human society, with all its cruelty, intolerance, and selfishness. Christ was telling his followers not to become part of that again.
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As Christ said, that is the part that really offends the world. Christ tells us to be separate. Another word for that in the Bible is "holy". This kind of separatist attitude really irks the world about Christians -- but you're right, it is exactly what we're called to be: separate. "In the world, but not of the world." Hence, Jesus predicted we'd be hated by the world. We get, "What, you guys think you're better than us? Who are you, anyway??" and other reactions like that. It's all just part of the pain of being called to be good in an evil place -- a place where not fitting in is considered the ultimate sin.
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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible. |
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01001011
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: |
Active Christians are under constant pressure by the world to SHUT UP about it. Jesus says not to, and points out the silliness of being a light in the world if we're always trying to hide that light, so that we will go unnoticed and thus fit in.
This thread is for my fellow Christians. |
It is ironic that these Christians want to continue to publicly utter their nonsense, and then think of anyone criticizing them as persecutors. |
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Ragtime
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| 01001011 wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: |
Active Christians are under constant pressure by the world to SHUT UP about it. Jesus says not to, and points out the silliness of being a light in the world if we're always trying to hide that light, so that we will go unnoticed and thus fit in.
This thread is for my fellow Christians. |
It is ironic that these Christians want to continue to publicly utter their nonsense, and then think of anyone criticizing them as persecutors. |
That kind of post is useless. When Christians utter nonsense, they are not being Christian, period. I hear a lot of nonsense from the Christian Church at large, but if I'm to be honest, I hear greater degrees of nonsense from atheists.
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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible. |
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01001011
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | 01001011 wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: |
Active Christians are under constant pressure by the world to SHUT UP about it. Jesus says not to, and points out the silliness of being a light in the world if we're always trying to hide that light, so that we will go unnoticed and thus fit in.
This thread is for my fellow Christians. |
It is ironic that these Christians want to continue to publicly utter their nonsense, and then think of anyone criticizing them as persecutors. |
That kind of post is useless. When Christians utter nonsense, they are not being Christian, period. I hear a lot of nonsense from the Christian Church at large, but if I'm to be honest, I hear greater degrees of nonsense from atheists. |
Then Christians don't exist because Christianity is nonsense. |
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Ragtime
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| 01001011 wrote: | | Christianity is nonsense. |
Well, at least you're backing up your claim. 
Simply being contrarian, without explanation, doesn't add anything that people will want to read.
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Ragtime
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:56 am Post subject: |
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If anyone here thinks Jesus is unloving, remember that He healed the sick, the lame, the blind, and the deaf -- and even raised Lazarus from the dead. There is no love without truth, so He was both loving and bluntly truthful. I think I'd listen to a blunt man, if he had just restored the eyesight which I never had since I was born! That would make me want to pay attention to what he has to say.
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
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Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | CrazyCatLord wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | It's interesting what most people thought this thread was saying: that Jesus wants us to hate.
The message of the thread is that the world hated Jesus. |
The world didn't hate Jesus. When he was alive (assuming that he was a real person), the vast majority of the world was entirely unaware of his existence. The only people who hated him were the religious leaders of his country, who compelled the Roman authorities to arrest and execute him. According to the gospel stories anyway.
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Those weren't the only people who hated him. And He was speaking of worldly people, who have the spirit of the world, and these people are spiritually the same everywhere on the planet. |
What is so wrong with the world...or being worldly, what the hell does that even mean. |
In short, it means not paying any attention to the God who created and loves you. |
I was created because my parents decided to have sex, that's about it...I see no reason I should view the entire world as evil just because a book says I should. Besides I would rather burn in hell then serve some selfish god who will doom you to torment for all eternity if you don't worship him...but somehow supposedly loves me. Its just not a healthy belief for me. |
I could answer this, but frankly it's true that my life sucks too a lot of the time, so, if we're going to judge God by how good our lives are, then we're being self-oriented, rather than letting God be God and ourselves be His creatures (in other words, the servants that we are by virtue of being His creations).
Where did I say anything about judging God by how good my life is?....I don't follow Christianity nor do I really believe the christian perspective on things. Therefore I don't worship a god in general let alone yours, there is however a certain energy in the universe but its not really a god. I also believe humanity is an experiment, and physical beings not 'God' is what's been screwing around with the DNA since life on this planet started it makes perfect sense but I won't go into all that right now as it might sound like pure insanity but yeah lets just say I have a different belief its not really a religion but its not atheism or agnosticism either. It doesn't really have a name I am aware of. But yeah your god is just irrelevant to my life I don't feel he has anything to do with my quality of life...that said obviously I don't plan on serving your god either.
I mean, this isn't going to give you any comfort, but God isn't here to be our, as my friend says, "cosmic bellhop", waiting on us hand and foot.
Well no crap, that is kind of what started me questioning the whole thing as a child....god never answered any prayers, though I have to say my prayers were more along the lines of 'God please help my parents stop fighting so they can be happy.' rather than 'God I need some new shoes.' But anyways nothing was ever answered so as a little kid I started wondering why...but I still kept trying to be the best little christian I could.
The crap He lets us go through are tests, and a mature attitude will realize that trials and tribulations are not God's hatred for us, but rather a maturing and purification process. The apostle Paul had a really rough life, yet praised God during it. You can either think he was being insane for doing that, or that he simply saw that "being worthy to suffer for Christ", as he put it, was an honor. This probably totally turns you off all the more, but I'm not going to sugarcoat it. You can find a church that sugarcoats things and makes you feel good with pleasant deceit -- try the Unitarians -- but personally I find the truth more liberating in the long term, even if often more painful to focus on in the short term. That's pretty much all I can say. If it's all about what God can do for you, you're missing the big picture. If, as you said, you'd prefer living in Hell, I hope you know what you're getting into. |
According to my philosophy I chose these experiences before I was born because there is something I am supposed to learn from human existence and something I'm supposed to do(don't know quite what it is yet, I have to wait till the time is right and I'll know) hmm even if it is just pure insanity with no truth to it at least it gives me a reason to keep living for a while because I am curious to find out. Also if it turns out your religion is correct, then yes I'd rather burn in hell with the devil then serve god in heaven.
But yes my life basically went in this order christian, christian curious about paganism, atheist, agnostic, christian, agnostic, satanist, agnostic/not caring about spirituality in any way and now the weird insane belief that I probably should not talk to psychologists about 
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01001011
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 04, 2010
Posts: 825
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | 01001011 wrote: | | Christianity is nonsense. |
Well, at least you're backing up your claim.
Simply being contrarian, without explanation, doesn't add anything that people will want to read. |
Given the time we both spent on PPR, it should be clear what my objection to theism from my posts. I do not think 'god' refer to anything (that is legiable and non-trivial), I do not believe in 'moral truths' and I do not regard the Christian bible as any different from any holy book. I had very long debates with other Christians where I explained my points. Use the search function if you want to read (which I doubt).
Really, do you expect any bible quotation to hold any water when arguing with anyone who dismisses your magic book? |
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01001011
Phoenix
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | If anyone here thinks Jesus is unloving, remember that His fanatic cult followers claim that He healed the sick, the lame, the blind, and the deaf -- and even raised Lazarus from the dead. |
Corrected for you. And how many 'the sick, the lame, the blind, and the deaf' modern medicine saved? |
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
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Age: 23
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Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| shrox wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | What is so wrong with the world...or being worldly, what the hell does that even mean. |
Being worldly literally means being attached to the things of the world. For modern times it's fast food, TV, trendy clothes and cars, consumerism in general, and owning things we are pained to get rid off. Think back to when Native American tribes dwelled in North America. Although they lived lives directly dependent upon the fruits of the Earth, they were not very worldly, and some were even tricked into trading large tracts of land for beads and trinkets.
Worldly can also be like modern day corporations, were destroying peoples lives is "nothing personal, just business". |
All the things you mention are human inventions, and some of those even contribute to the negative state of the world.......what I am saying is the world in itself is not a bad place, there is nothing wrong with things that grow or live on this planet in general. Society really does suck but that's not the whole world......also I don't see how dismissing the entire world as evil and only concerning yourself with what might happen after you die rather than what is actually going on in the moment is a very good solution for anything.
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