| Jesus, Christians, and the world |
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | The world is actually a beautiful place, its a shame you guys think it's evil.....I mean I certainly don't like society but I don't see what is so evil about things like nature. |
Who said anything about nature? This is about humanity's attitudes and actions. |
Well all those quotes referred to how evil the world is, I thought that meant the world in general. That said though wouldn't that be a reason to try and improve humanity rather than root for the destruction of it. Or is Christianity really about hate and superiority after all. |
There is no rooting for its destruction. The point is it's destroying itself with its own evil. |
The world isn't evil.......end of story. |
Would you like the numbers of killings in the 20th century alone, the bloodiest in history by far? That came from how good-natured the world is, right? |
And that proves that the entire world is evil? Also what about all the killings christians throughout history have participated in, Its not as though the history of your religion isn't filled with violence. |
You are right about that. It's a terrible thing that people claiming to be Christian perpetrated such horrible violence and murder at certain periods in history. But the New Testament they claimed to follow absolutely denied any such permission, and even told them to treat people exactly the opposite: with kindness. In fact, here is what they were supposed to be following: "...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23) And Jesus said: "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." (Jn 13:35) So, clearly, those "Christians" weren't Christians. It's a terrible thing, I absolutely agree. |
Yeah excuses, excuses........why when I bring this up can't anyone who's a christian just acknowledge, yes there are some pretty dark things in the past of their religion instead of trying to convince me that somehow the Christians who did that where all fake christains. I imagine if I went back in time and asked them about it they'd have a different view on how real of Christians they where.
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It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
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Grebels
Toucan
Joined: Mar 06, 2012
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | ...also I don't see how dismissing the entire world as evil and only concerning yourself with what might happen after you die rather than what is actually going on in the moment is a very good solution for anything. |
Absolutely sweetleaf. Faith should be about life here and now. Just so you know, I do not see so many good and decent people condemned to Hell, because they don't believe. I do believe that what we are here and now makes for what we will be after death. It may seem to be a problem that The Bible seems to make very little detailed mention of life after death, and there are considerable disagreements about what will happen. I do not think that was a careless ommission. We would spend all of our time thinking about it to no useful purpose. I think it is somewhat beyond our understanding. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12765
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | If anyone here thinks Jesus is unloving, remember that He healed the sick, the lame, the blind, and the deaf -- and even raised Lazarus from the dead. There is no love without truth, so He was both loving and bluntly truthful. I think I'd listen to a blunt man, if he had just restored the eyesight which I never had since I was born! That would make me want to pay attention to what he has to say. |
It is true Christ was blunt when it comes to condemning sin and hypocrisy - but most of his criticism was leveled at the Pharisees, who, with all their legalism and their readiness to level judgement, were the religious right of his day. The people who Jesus courted with forgiveness the most were the people who the religious right today wouldn't even allow to step into their churches today.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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AngelRho
Synclavier owner/operator
Joined: Jan 05, 2008
Posts: 3726
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Sweetleaf wrote: | | Yeah excuses, excuses........why when I bring this up can't anyone who's a christian just acknowledge, yes there are some pretty dark things in the past of their religion instead of trying to convince me that somehow the Christians who did that where all fake christains. I imagine if I went back in time and asked them about it they'd have a different view on how real of Christians they where. |
I'm with Ragtime on this one. How exactly do you define "Christian"? My definition is simply "follower of Jesus Christ." I don't care how much someone claims to be a disciple. If their actions don't reflect the kind of change in a person's life that one would expect by someone actually placing his faith in the atoning work of Christ, then I have difficulty accepting that any such person is a brother or sister in Christ and I would heavily question whether that person is really saved. Merely claiming to be a Christian isn't enough. It seems to me that the definition of "Christian" is "people who claim to be followers of Christ, go to church, and do evil things contrary to Jesus' teachings." And that's just not Biblical.
Are there dark things in our past? Sure. I'll acknowledge that. And that some calling themselves Christians in the past did horrible things does not mean that some of those same people were NOT saved, either. It just means that the evidence that they were is lacking. Whether one's salvation is actually worked out lies between the individual and God. There have always been believers who did evil things because they didn't yet fully understand what being saved means. Christianity has never been about how much good or evil you do. It's about whether you trust that God through Jesus is powerful enough to atone for the sins of all humanity. Those who accept that are saved, and even the most hopeless among humanity--even those among us we consider evil beyond redemption--can still be saved through God's grace. If it is wrong for Christians through lack of spiritual maturity to judge others, it is just as wrong for others to judge us. |
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Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 12092
Location: La belle province
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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"Christianity was not responsible for all of the atrocities done in its name, because all of those people were fake Christians!!!" -Christians hundreds of years later
I'm betting a few hundred years from now, a great deal of Christians will say the same thing about the Christians of this time
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29316
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: | "Christianity was not responsible for all of the atrocities done in its name, because all of those people were fake Christians!!!" -Christians hundreds of years later
I'm betting a few hundred years from now, a great deal of Christians will say the same thing about the Christians of this time |
No True Scotsman could disagree with you.
ruveyn |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 34
Posts: 9770
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | If anyone here thinks Jesus is unloving, remember that He healed the sick, the lame, the blind, and the deaf -- and even raised Lazarus from the dead. There is no love without truth, so He was both loving and bluntly truthful. I think I'd listen to a blunt man, if he had just restored the eyesight which I never had since I was born! That would make me want to pay attention to what he has to say. |
It is true Christ was blunt when it comes to condemning sin and hypocrisy - but most of his criticism was leveled at the Pharisees, who, with all their legalism and their readiness to level judgement, were the religious right of his day. The people who Jesus courted with forgiveness the most were the people who the religious right today wouldn't even allow to step into their churches today.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Gee, I was talking about God; I didn't know I was talking modern politics.  "Ya, you're right, Jesus was really loving, and people shouldn't think He's mean" would have been more relevant. I'm conservative, and you can take swipes at that all you want, but do it in response to a post or topic about politics.
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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible. |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 34
Posts: 9770
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: | "Christianity was not responsible for all of the atrocities done in its name, because all of those people were fake Christians!!!" -Christians hundreds of years later
I'm betting a few hundred years from now, a great deal of Christians will say the same thing about the Christians of this time |
You'd make a great point here -- if there were no manual people could reference on how to be a Christian.
Jesus: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Matt 5:44)
Jesus' doctrines are in a Book that virtually everyone has access to, so being wilfully blind as to what a Christian is, and then assuming that only the most evil of the those in all of history who called themselves "Christians" were the real Christians, is obviously a total intentional bias aimed at a pre-determined conclusion. You get out of analysis what you put into it. If you want to see Christians as evil, you will, even when Jesus said His true followers love everyone and behave very well indeed.
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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible. |
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Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 12092
Location: La belle province
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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I have never once said that only the "most evil" were real Christians. The "No True Scotsman Fallacy" does not work on people who know history
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12765
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | If anyone here thinks Jesus is unloving, remember that He healed the sick, the lame, the blind, and the deaf -- and even raised Lazarus from the dead. There is no love without truth, so He was both loving and bluntly truthful. I think I'd listen to a blunt man, if he had just restored the eyesight which I never had since I was born! That would make me want to pay attention to what he has to say. |
It is true Christ was blunt when it comes to condemning sin and hypocrisy - but most of his criticism was leveled at the Pharisees, who, with all their legalism and their readiness to level judgement, were the religious right of his day. The people who Jesus courted with forgiveness the most were the people who the religious right today wouldn't even allow to step into their churches today.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Gee, I was talking about God; I didn't know I was talking modern politics. "Ya, you're right, Jesus was really loving, and people shouldn't think He's mean" would have been more relevant. I'm conservative, and you can take swipes at that all you want, but do it in response to a post or topic about politics. |
No, I was talking about Jesus and how parallels can be drawn with his time and today. That Jesus was critical of the Pharisees is indisputable. That the Pharisees were the legalists of his day is also indisputable. I will even concede that Jesus was equally hard on the Sadducees, who corresponded with liberal modernism in modern Christianity.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 34
Posts: 9770
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | If anyone here thinks Jesus is unloving, remember that He healed the sick, the lame, the blind, and the deaf -- and even raised Lazarus from the dead. There is no love without truth, so He was both loving and bluntly truthful. I think I'd listen to a blunt man, if he had just restored the eyesight which I never had since I was born! That would make me want to pay attention to what he has to say. |
It is true Christ was blunt when it comes to condemning sin and hypocrisy - but most of his criticism was leveled at the Pharisees, who, with all their legalism and their readiness to level judgement, were the religious right of his day. The people who Jesus courted with forgiveness the most were the people who the religious right today wouldn't even allow to step into their churches today.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Gee, I was talking about God; I didn't know I was talking modern politics. "Ya, you're right, Jesus was really loving, and people shouldn't think He's mean" would have been more relevant. I'm conservative, and you can take swipes at that all you want, but do it in response to a post or topic about politics. |
No, I was talking about Jesus and how parallels can be drawn with his time and today. That Jesus was critical of the Pharisees is indisputable. That the Pharisees were the legalists of his day is also indisputable. I will even concede that Jesus was equally hard on the Sadducees, who corresponded with liberal modernism in modern Christianity.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Okay, I see. And it wasn't that the Pharisees were right-wingers that Jesus had a problem with, it was that their personal practices were hypocritical -- disfiguring their faces to appear to have been fasting longer than they had, making long prayers on streetcorners just to be seen by the people, and sending forth people before them to make noise and get attention whenever they were going to give to charity simply to be seen by lots of people. They also made up different and Bible-contrary laws for the people to follow, which Jesus called them out on because they were, in that capacity, contradicting God who gave those laws. They weren't who they claimed to be, and that was what really irritated Jesus. If they had actually lived up to the ultra-conservative positions that they officially held, Jesus would simply have let them know that an age of Grace was coming, and that, very soon, they wouldn't need to be legalistic in keeping the technicals of the law, but, rather, God would "write [His] law in their hearts", as Jeremiah wrote, and righteousness would naturally flow outward from the heart. Jesus taught people that, whether under the Old Covenant or the New, righteousness starts in the heart, and cannot be produced by the good deeds of a hard-hearted man.
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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12765
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | If anyone here thinks Jesus is unloving, remember that He healed the sick, the lame, the blind, and the deaf -- and even raised Lazarus from the dead. There is no love without truth, so He was both loving and bluntly truthful. I think I'd listen to a blunt man, if he had just restored the eyesight which I never had since I was born! That would make me want to pay attention to what he has to say. |
It is true Christ was blunt when it comes to condemning sin and hypocrisy - but most of his criticism was leveled at the Pharisees, who, with all their legalism and their readiness to level judgement, were the religious right of his day. The people who Jesus courted with forgiveness the most were the people who the religious right today wouldn't even allow to step into their churches today.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Gee, I was talking about God; I didn't know I was talking modern politics. "Ya, you're right, Jesus was really loving, and people shouldn't think He's mean" would have been more relevant. I'm conservative, and you can take swipes at that all you want, but do it in response to a post or topic about politics. |
No, I was talking about Jesus and how parallels can be drawn with his time and today. That Jesus was critical of the Pharisees is indisputable. That the Pharisees were the legalists of his day is also indisputable. I will even concede that Jesus was equally hard on the Sadducees, who corresponded with liberal modernism in modern Christianity.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Okay, I see. And it wasn't that the Pharisees were right-wingers that Jesus had a problem with, it was that their personal practices were hypocritical -- disfiguring their faces to appear to have been fasting longer than they had, making long prayers on streetcorners just to be seen by the people, and sending forth people before them to make noise and get attention whenever they were going to give to charity simply to be seen by lots of people. They also made up different and Bible-contrary laws for the people to follow, which Jesus called them out on because they were, in that capacity, contradicting God who gave those laws. They weren't who they claimed to be, and that was what really irritated Jesus. If they had actually lived up to the ultra-conservative positions that they officially held, Jesus would simply have let them know that an age of Grace was coming, and that, very soon, they wouldn't need to be legalistic in keeping the technicals of the law, but, rather, God would "write [His] law in their hearts", as Jeremiah wrote, and righteousness would naturally flow outward from the heart. Jesus taught people that, whether under the Old Covenant or the New, righteousness starts in the heart, and cannot be produced by the good deeds of a hard-hearted man. |
Personally, I think Christ had rejected the religious right and left of his day, as both came up short of his message. In regard to the Pharisees in particular, I think he was critical of both their hypocrisy, and their legalism which the common people could never live up to.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 34
Posts: 9770
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| 01001011 wrote: |
Really, do you expect any bible quotation to hold any water when arguing with anyone who dismisses your magic book? |
Only if the book contains remarkable wisdom, and tells accurate and deeply-insightful things about the world, human nature, and the future. The degree of Jesus' of wisdom found in the Gospels cannot not be faked. The scattering of the Jews from their homeland to all over the earth, and their being regathered to their homeland again, was prophesied before the time of Christ. The first part of that prophecy came true in 70AD, and the second happened in the 20th century. That's a pretty far-reaching prophecy, as well as an unlikely one to come true, given just how scattered they were. Such a scattering and regathering of a single people, while keeping the same God and language all throughout the process, is without parallel in world history. God did it.
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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible. |
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| AngelRho wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | Yeah excuses, excuses........why when I bring this up can't anyone who's a christian just acknowledge, yes there are some pretty dark things in the past of their religion instead of trying to convince me that somehow the Christians who did that where all fake christains. I imagine if I went back in time and asked them about it they'd have a different view on how real of Christians they where. |
I'm with Ragtime on this one. How exactly do you define "Christian"? My definition is simply "follower of Jesus Christ." I don't care how much someone claims to be a disciple. If their actions don't reflect the kind of change in a person's life that one would expect by someone actually placing his faith in the atoning work of Christ, then I have difficulty accepting that any such person is a brother or sister in Christ and I would heavily question whether that person is really saved. Merely claiming to be a Christian isn't enough. It seems to me that the definition of "Christian" is "people who claim to be followers of Christ, go to church, and do evil things contrary to Jesus' teachings." And that's just not Biblical.
I was using it to refer to people who follow the religion Christianity.
Are there dark things in our past? Sure. I'll acknowledge that. And that some calling themselves Christians in the past did horrible things does not mean that some of those same people were NOT saved, either. It just means that the evidence that they were is lacking. Whether one's salvation is actually worked out lies between the individual and God. There have always been believers who did evil things because they didn't yet fully understand what being saved means. Christianity has never been about how much good or evil you do. It's about whether you trust that God through Jesus is powerful enough to atone for the sins of all humanity. Those who accept that are saved, and even the most hopeless among humanity--even those among us we consider evil beyond redemption--can still be saved through God's grace. If it is wrong for Christians through lack of spiritual maturity to judge others, it is just as wrong for others to judge us. |
There you go with the 'calling themselves Christians'...they where Christians, that is the religion they followed, sure maybe they gave it a bad name and did not truly represent what it was supposed to be about but just dismissing it as not a part of the history of Christianity in general. Also I find the notion of doing horrible things with the comfort of knowing you can repent and be saved regardless kind of sick, yet if one lives a nice life not hurting anyone else they'll burn in hell if they don't repent...it's just not a belief system I can subscribe to.
Also I'm not really judging anyone, just explaining why I disagree with a certain religion, but I don't hate people for their religion.
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It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14828
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | 01001011 wrote: |
Really, do you expect any bible quotation to hold any water when arguing with anyone who dismisses your magic book? |
Only if the book contains remarkable wisdom, and tells accurate and deeply-insightful things about the world, human nature, and the future. The degree of Jesus' of wisdom found in the Gospels cannot not be faked. The scattering of the Jews from their homeland to all over the earth, and their being regathered to their homeland again, was prophesied before the time of Christ. The first part of that prophecy came true in 70AD, and the second happened in the 20th century. That's a pretty far-reaching prophecy, as well as an unlikely one to come true, given just how scattered they were. Such a scattering and regathering of a single people, while keeping the same God and language all throughout the process, is without parallel in world history. God did it. |
All the bible is, is a collection of various writings of ancient times written by various people....its their perspectives on what went on, all assembled into one book. How is it any more valid than any other book?
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It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
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