MarketAndChurch
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 04, 2011
Age: 26
Posts: 1826
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland
|
 Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:17 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| abacacus wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | Joker wrote: |
That is all from the old testement how about from the new testement. |
Why? According to the bible you have to follow the old testament as well. Even if you weren't, the bible also says that god doesn't change. You are worshipping the god that commanded those atrocities. Now justify his ordering of them, don't dance around the issue. |
Your right but I foucus on the New Testement to most christians, we view the Old Testement as part of the history of our faith but we do not follow such laws because we go by what Jesus of nazareth taught that is what being a christian is. |
...and part of what Jesus said was not to set the old laws aside... |
but rather to put them into context, mostly with the new testament taking the lead, and square the two books. Original Sin is not a jewish concept, largely a new-testament inspired play on an old testament story. It is a balancing act that 2000 years of study has learned to balance, and some doctrines Christians accept, and some they don't.
_________________
"Thou art weighed in the balances, and found wanting" - God |
|
| Back to top |
|
abacacus
Rock 'N Roll Outlaw
Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Age: 21
Posts: 3350
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Joker wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | SO what you're essentially saying is "god is the father and he knows best but I know better than him"?  |
No I am saying that you will not find christians that follow the old convenent laws unless they are a funny a lot of christian have the right to disagree but still be obident to God by following the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth their are a lot of branches of Christianity.
I follow Gothic Christianity because historically the Goths where Christian. |
Which amounts to what I said...
_________________
A shot gun blast into the face of deceit
You'll gain your just reward.
We'll not rest until the purge is complete
You will reap what you've sown. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| MarketAndChurch wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | Joker wrote: |
That is all from the old testement how about from the new testement. |
Why? According to the bible you have to follow the old testament as well. Even if you weren't, the bible also says that god doesn't change. You are worshipping the god that commanded those atrocities. Now justify his ordering of them, don't dance around the issue. |
Your right but I foucus on the New Testement to most christians, we view the Old Testement as part of the history of our faith but we do not follow such laws because we go by what Jesus of nazareth taught that is what being a christian is. |
...and part of what Jesus said was not to set the old laws aside... |
but rather to put them into context, mostly with the new testament taking the lead, and square the two books. Original Sin is not a jewish concept, largely a new-testament inspired play on an old testament story. It is a balancing act that 2000 years of study has learned to balance, and some doctrines Christians accept, and some they don't. |
Indeed which is the point I am trying to make to him. |
|
| Back to top |
|
abacacus
Rock 'N Roll Outlaw
Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Age: 21
Posts: 3350
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| MarketAndChurch wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | Joker wrote: |
That is all from the old testement how about from the new testement. |
Why? According to the bible you have to follow the old testament as well. Even if you weren't, the bible also says that god doesn't change. You are worshipping the god that commanded those atrocities. Now justify his ordering of them, don't dance around the issue. |
Your right but I foucus on the New Testement to most christians, we view the Old Testement as part of the history of our faith but we do not follow such laws because we go by what Jesus of nazareth taught that is what being a christian is. |
...and part of what Jesus said was not to set the old laws aside... |
but rather to put them into context, mostly with the new testament taking the lead, and square the two books. Original Sin is not a jewish concept, largely a new-testament inspired play on an old testament story. It is a balancing act that 2000 years of study has learned to balance, and some doctrines Christians accept, and some they don't. |
What possible context is there for burning people alive? Are you trying to claim that it isn't reprehensible to take a living person and light them on fire under ANY circumstances? O_O
_________________
A shot gun blast into the face of deceit
You'll gain your just reward.
We'll not rest until the purge is complete
You will reap what you've sown. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| abacacus wrote: | | MarketAndChurch wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | Joker wrote: |
That is all from the old testement how about from the new testement. |
Why? According to the bible you have to follow the old testament as well. Even if you weren't, the bible also says that god doesn't change. You are worshipping the god that commanded those atrocities. Now justify his ordering of them, don't dance around the issue. |
Your right but I foucus on the New Testement to most christians, we view the Old Testement as part of the history of our faith but we do not follow such laws because we go by what Jesus of nazareth taught that is what being a christian is. |
...and part of what Jesus said was not to set the old laws aside... |
but rather to put them into context, mostly with the new testament taking the lead, and square the two books. Original Sin is not a jewish concept, largely a new-testament inspired play on an old testament story. It is a balancing act that 2000 years of study has learned to balance, and some doctrines Christians accept, and some they don't. |
What possible context is there for burning people alive? Are you trying to claim that it isn't reprehensible to take a living person and light them on fire under ANY circumstances? O_O |
In that part of the old testement it was the people that followed the God Baal that was burning people in fire not Jews and not christians. |
|
| Back to top |
|
abacacus
Rock 'N Roll Outlaw
Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Age: 21
Posts: 3350
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Joker wrote: |
In that part of the old testement it was the people that followed the God Baal that was burning people in fire not Jews and not christians. |
Jephtah burned his daughter as a human sacrifice to god (god, not baal). In the verse I provided, it plainly states that you should burn a priests daughter if she becomes a prostitute.
So yes, it was Jews and Christians burning people alive...
_________________
A shot gun blast into the face of deceit
You'll gain your just reward.
We'll not rest until the purge is complete
You will reap what you've sown. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Age: 25
Posts: 12113
Location: La belle province
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Joker wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | MarketAndChurch wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | Joker wrote: |
That is all from the old testement how about from the new testement. |
Why? According to the bible you have to follow the old testament as well. Even if you weren't, the bible also says that god doesn't change. You are worshipping the god that commanded those atrocities. Now justify his ordering of them, don't dance around the issue. |
Your right but I foucus on the New Testement to most christians, we view the Old Testement as part of the history of our faith but we do not follow such laws because we go by what Jesus of nazareth taught that is what being a christian is. |
...and part of what Jesus said was not to set the old laws aside... |
but rather to put them into context, mostly with the new testament taking the lead, and square the two books. Original Sin is not a jewish concept, largely a new-testament inspired play on an old testament story. It is a balancing act that 2000 years of study has learned to balance, and some doctrines Christians accept, and some they don't. |
What possible context is there for burning people alive? Are you trying to claim that it isn't reprehensible to take a living person and light them on fire under ANY circumstances? O_O |
In that part of the old testement it was the people that followed the God Baal that was burning people in fire not Jews and not christians. |
The Old Testament can only be expected to portray rival religions poorly
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
|
| Back to top |
|
blauSamstag
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 06, 2011
Posts: 1880
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
It's been said that the hardest trial of any true believer is to forgive God for putting them on this planet.
so, well, yes, they do hold God accountable. |
|
| Back to top |
|
MarketAndChurch
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 04, 2011
Age: 26
Posts: 1826
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| abacacus wrote: | | MarketAndChurch wrote: | | abacacus wrote: |
Okay then, here's a fair trial:
Why did your god command so many atrocities? You know, human sacrifice, the murder of infants, the murder of entire towns or even nations, horrific punishments such as being burned alive, etc. |
Examples please... |
Would you like any more? |
Yes, do quote more, I'll see which ones I can answer. And please use this: http://www.breslov.com/ref/Deuteronomy13.htm
or
http://www.breslov.com/bible/Leviticus.htm
Those translations tend to be more accurately translated from the hebrew then whatever version you are quoting.
For Leviticus 21:9
They ment it literally at first, and one cannot walk around that verse, it is troubling.
The Sadducees believed in literal burning, but the Pharisees believed only in burning of the soul. Some time 2300 years ago, after they came back from babylon, a priest in the second temple era did witness a daughter of a priest burned for becoming a whore, but that is the only example. It's never happened since then, and has taken a stance against that literal interpretation by revising it in the talmud.
The way it is understood is that is merely an indicator of the severity, and how seriously the torah takes the issue.
For (Deuteronomy 13:13-19
They are the first generation in setting up the Jewish nation, most of them are very pagan themselves, this was the only way to shape them into the vehicle for monotheism that they will eventually become. They had to wipe out those pagans, who, described in the previous chapter, sacrificed their children to their false Gods. They were primitive, engaged in sex with their syblings, or animals, were ethically FOC's (Fresh Out of the Cave), etc.
The ending of that group of versus ends with the concept: You do what is right in Gods eyes, not what is right in your own eyes. In setting up the Jewish Republic, this was the only way to condition this people into the right ethical model that can then go forth and spread the torah to the world. In other words... this is for the Jew, there isn't much for us to learn from it other then this was how God inculcated Gods values into this group of people to purify them so they can carry out a specific task for God. I can't think of any examples off hand where this policy was carried out, and again, the way its always been understood in Jewish Rabbinic teaching is that it is only to teach us the severity of the matter, and for us to treat it with immense seriousness.
_________________
"Thou art weighed in the balances, and found wanting" - God |
|
| Back to top |
|
MarketAndChurch
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 04, 2011
Age: 26
Posts: 1826
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Vigilans wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | MarketAndChurch wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | Joker wrote: |
That is all from the old testement how about from the new testement. |
Why? According to the bible you have to follow the old testament as well. Even if you weren't, the bible also says that god doesn't change. You are worshipping the god that commanded those atrocities. Now justify his ordering of them, don't dance around the issue. |
Your right but I foucus on the New Testement to most christians, we view the Old Testement as part of the history of our faith but we do not follow such laws because we go by what Jesus of nazareth taught that is what being a christian is. |
...and part of what Jesus said was not to set the old laws aside... |
but rather to put them into context, mostly with the new testament taking the lead, and square the two books. Original Sin is not a jewish concept, largely a new-testament inspired play on an old testament story. It is a balancing act that 2000 years of study has learned to balance, and some doctrines Christians accept, and some they don't. |
What possible context is there for burning people alive? Are you trying to claim that it isn't reprehensible to take a living person and light them on fire under ANY circumstances? O_O |
In that part of the old testement it was the people that followed the God Baal that was burning people in fire not Jews and not christians. |
The Old Testament can only be expected to portray rival religions poorly |
Because they were...
_________________
"Thou art weighed in the balances, and found wanting" - God |
|
| Back to top |
|
MarketAndChurch
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 04, 2011
Age: 26
Posts: 1826
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| abacacus wrote: | | MarketAndChurch wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | Joker wrote: |
That is all from the old testement how about from the new testement. |
Why? According to the bible you have to follow the old testament as well. Even if you weren't, the bible also says that god doesn't change. You are worshipping the god that commanded those atrocities. Now justify his ordering of them, don't dance around the issue. |
Your right but I foucus on the New Testement to most christians, we view the Old Testement as part of the history of our faith but we do not follow such laws because we go by what Jesus of nazareth taught that is what being a christian is. |
...and part of what Jesus said was not to set the old laws aside... |
but rather to put them into context, mostly with the new testament taking the lead, and square the two books. Original Sin is not a jewish concept, largely a new-testament inspired play on an old testament story. It is a balancing act that 2000 years of study has learned to balance, and some doctrines Christians accept, and some they don't. |
What possible context is there for burning people alive? Are you trying to claim that it isn't reprehensible to take a living person and light them on fire under ANY circumstances? O_O |
No, when I say context, I mean that there are two books, the old and the new, and things don't always square up because the old evolved and got a new take when the new came along. One then views the old through the lens of the new, and where there is conflict, one then adopts the new ones interpretation on things, and that is how Christianity made peace with its roots.
Can you name another man who burned his daughter as an offering to God in 4000+ years of Jewish life? What can one possibly learn from this... if there is anything to learn at all... It takes nothing to dump on the bible, any crackpot can cite a verse here and a verse there. Imagine if someone took a few lines from a piece of writing of Shakespeare or Hemingway or Dickens or Orwell out of context and tried to then say that any one of those authors were an idiot, one would immediately demand to know what education they have in literature, or what they degree they hold, but the bible seems free for anyone to dump on without knowing a thing about it.
_________________
"Thou art weighed in the balances, and found wanting" - God |
|
| Back to top |
|
Unspecified
Sea Gull
Joined: Jan 05, 2012
Age: 45
Posts: 207
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| MarketAndChurch wrote: | Why should one hold God accountable when the majority of our suffering are not natural, but rather, manmade...
If one is fair, then simply ask yourself that, does most of your suffering come from natural causes, like your autism, or the death of a relative due to cancer, or a tornado, or does it come from other human beings, who talk behind your back, who'll mistreat the ones you love, take your wealth, or rob you of your dignity, etc.
If God held humanity accountable since Cain, and despite a flood, we still act the way we do, then if we destroy this world or each other, we are responsible for that, and does not reflect on God.
If you put God on Trial, at least be fair in the way you do it. |
This would make sense to me if people didn't at the same time say "Thank God!" or "It's a miracle!" whenever something good happens.
The girl from the plane that crashed in Detroit is called the miracle girl. So if God suspended the laws of physics and intervened on her behalf, then in my mind he (it?) could also have done the same for the 148 other passengers. To me, this is a mass murder. If God could have prevented it but didn't, it seems a very strange thing to celebrate.
(in actual fact, of course, it's none of these things. A comedy of errors caused the crash. There is no need whatsoever to invoke a divine being in the explanation of any aspect of the crash - so I don't actually mean that god killed all those people, because there is no god) |
|
| Back to top |
|
Unspecified
Sea Gull
Joined: Jan 05, 2012
Age: 45
Posts: 207
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Joker wrote: | | abacacus wrote: | | SO what you're essentially saying is "god is the father and he knows best but I know better than him"? |
No I am saying that you will not find christians that follow the old convenent laws unless they are a funny
|
Except when it comes to gays, of course. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Rocky
This dude is one hoopy frood!
Joined: May 02, 2008
Posts: 2096
Location: Uhhh...Not Remulak
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
If the faithful are the ones who believe that the Bible is literally true, they might not want to risk criticizing the biggest mass murderer in known history.
Criticism might also be mistaken for disbelief, which according to the New Testament, leads to an eternity of torture in Hell. This is not logical, since the god of the Bible is omniscient. He could tell the difference between belief and the appearance of disbelief. But if they were logical, they probably wouldn't be among the faithful. Faith, after all is belief in the face of evidence to the contrary.
I may have some of the details wrong, since it was quite some time ago that I read that book.
Last edited by Rocky on Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
Posts: 29709
Location: New Jersey
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Rocky wrote: | If the faithful are the ones who believe that the Bible is literally true, they might not want to risk criticizing the biggest mass murderer in known history.
Criticism might also be mistaken for disbelief, which according to the New Testament, leads to an eternity of torture in Hell. I may have some of the details wrong, since it was quite some time ago that I read that book. |
Poor Job attempted to criticize God and he got a tongue lashing.
ruveyn |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
