| Jesus, Christians, and the world |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12751
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 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: |
As a Lutheran, I don't believe in irresistible grace, or if you will, "once saved, always saved." Judas, after all, had fallen from grace.
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How was he under grace to begin with? He was stealing from Jesus' disciples money bag regularly. There is no evidence to suggest he was ever sincere.
| Kraichgauer wrote: |
Those Christians who had committed Un-Christian acts had put too much trust in their hold onto grace, and thus had in reality fallen away.
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I do believe in "back-sliding", where you can fall away from practicing and believing Christianity, without losing your eternal salvation. I also believe in false conversion, where the person was never sincere in accepting Jesus. Jesus said He'll say to those who tell Him in the afterlife "I performed miracles, I cast out demons in your name, and did all these wonderful works", He'll say to them "I never knew you." (Never once.)
| Kraichgauer wrote: |
Also, we're not big on the notion that we can "accept" Christ - that is, take an active part in our own conversion. Rather, we believe that our salvation is entirely in God's able hands, not our own - even if it may seem that way if conversion comes in later life.
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Well, I do believe that the Holy Spirit leads a person to salvation, but that it is still a conscious and deliberate decision of acceptance on the part of the person. I know we've talked long about this before. |
I'm sorry, but that's where you and I part ways. Without God's grace, earned for us by Christ, we are in a natural state of rebellion against God. And while predestination is today an unpopular subject, Paul tells us we were foreknown and predestined by God, leading us to believe our salvation is entirely in God's able hands.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
Some people were predestined for salvation, yes. But nowhere does it say people were predestined for damnation. So choice can be involved. Of course God would know the future, but God knowing the future doesn't stop future people from thinking and making decisions, it just means He's know them all ahead of time.
Acceptance of salvation involves the will, it's not God alone. He doesn't force us to convert. Otherwise, no Gospel would have been needed to be preached, no sermon on Mars hill by Paul -- in fact, all sermons would be pointless, because God could lead the predestined people to salvation like cosmically-controlled zombies and they would automatically believe.
To be honest, what importance would the exact identity of the salvation mechanism have in the real world? Also, what do you do with verses like, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance"? (2 Pet 3:9)
If He could predestinate everyone to come to Him regardless of their will, and it says He does want anyone to go to Hell, then why didn't He predestinate everyone to go to Heaven? As it is, MOST people will go to Hell: Jesus said, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it" (Matt 7:13-14). |
I never said there was a predestination to damnation - that was Calvin, not Luther. Rather, it's a matter that we are all by our very natures in rebellion against God, and so could not come to him because we would not want to. It's not a matter of us being zombies, but a matter of God making us his children and friends. While we believe we can't by our own power accept Christ, we still can make the choice not to. In the end, we should take comfort in knowing we are in God's grace, rather than trying to understand why others might not be. Then again, it's not up to us to decide who's saved, and who isn't - that's entirely God's job.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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01001011
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 04, 2010
Posts: 825
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | 01001011 wrote: |
Really, do you expect any bible quotation to hold any water when arguing with anyone who dismisses your magic book? |
Only if the book contains remarkable wisdom, and tells accurate and deeply-insightful things about the world, human nature, and the future. The degree of Jesus' of wisdom found in the Gospels cannot not be faked. The scattering of the Jews from their homeland to all over the earth, and their being regathered to their homeland again, was prophesied before the time of Christ. The first part of that prophecy came true in 70AD, and the second happened in the 20th century. That's a pretty far-reaching prophecy, as well as an unlikely one to come true, given just how scattered they were. Such a scattering and regathering of a single people, while keeping the same God and language all throughout the process, is without parallel in world history. God did it. |
We have the typical 'prophecy'. Either vague, obvious, or self full-filling. |
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01001011
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 04, 2010
Posts: 825
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | "Christianity was not responsible for all of the atrocities done in its name, because all of those people were fake Christians!!!" -Christians hundreds of years later
I'm betting a few hundred years from now, a great deal of Christians will say the same thing about the Christians of this time |
You'd make a great point here -- if there were no manual people could reference on how to be a Christian.
Jesus: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Matt 5:44)
Jesus' doctrines are in a Book that virtually everyone has access to, so being wilfully blind as to what a Christian is, and then assuming that only the most evil of the those in all of history who called themselves "Christians" were the real Christians, is obviously a total intentional bias aimed at a pre-determined conclusion. You get out of analysis what you put into it. If you want to see Christians as evil, you will, even when Jesus said His true followers love everyone and behave very well indeed. |
We have a book that is a bunch of nonsense that people can interpreted whethever they like. Any analysis is just as baised as the others. |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 34
Posts: 9770
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| 01001011 wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | "Christianity was not responsible for all of the atrocities done in its name, because all of those people were fake Christians!!!" -Christians hundreds of years later
I'm betting a few hundred years from now, a great deal of Christians will say the same thing about the Christians of this time |
You'd make a great point here -- if there were no manual people could reference on how to be a Christian.
Jesus: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Matt 5:44)
Jesus' doctrines are in a Book that virtually everyone has access to, so being wilfully blind as to what a Christian is, and then assuming that only the most evil of the those in all of history who called themselves "Christians" were the real Christians, is obviously a total intentional bias aimed at a pre-determined conclusion. You get out of analysis what you put into it. If you want to see Christians as evil, you will, even when Jesus said His true followers love everyone and behave very well indeed. |
We have a book that is a bunch of nonsense that people can interpreted whethever they like. Any analysis is just as baised as the others. |
Okay. You're being obtuse. We get it. Congratulations on not seeing.
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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible. |
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Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 12091
Location: La belle province
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | 01001011 wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | "Christianity was not responsible for all of the atrocities done in its name, because all of those people were fake Christians!!!" -Christians hundreds of years later
I'm betting a few hundred years from now, a great deal of Christians will say the same thing about the Christians of this time |
You'd make a great point here -- if there were no manual people could reference on how to be a Christian.
Jesus: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Matt 5:44)
Jesus' doctrines are in a Book that virtually everyone has access to, so being wilfully blind as to what a Christian is, and then assuming that only the most evil of the those in all of history who called themselves "Christians" were the real Christians, is obviously a total intentional bias aimed at a pre-determined conclusion. You get out of analysis what you put into it. If you want to see Christians as evil, you will, even when Jesus said His true followers love everyone and behave very well indeed. |
We have a book that is a bunch of nonsense that people can interpreted whethever they like. Any analysis is just as baised as the others. |
Okay. You're being obtuse. We get it. Congratulations on not seeing. |
You are clearly interpreting your fairytales differently than other Christians on this forum. Are you the only real Christian? Based on your past statements, I would say your answer would be "Yes" if you choose to answer that at all
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | 01001011 wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | "Christianity was not responsible for all of the atrocities done in its name, because all of those people were fake Christians!!!" -Christians hundreds of years later
I'm betting a few hundred years from now, a great deal of Christians will say the same thing about the Christians of this time |
You'd make a great point here -- if there were no manual people could reference on how to be a Christian.
Jesus: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Matt 5:44)
Jesus' doctrines are in a Book that virtually everyone has access to, so being wilfully blind as to what a Christian is, and then assuming that only the most evil of the those in all of history who called themselves "Christians" were the real Christians, is obviously a total intentional bias aimed at a pre-determined conclusion. You get out of analysis what you put into it. If you want to see Christians as evil, you will, even when Jesus said His true followers love everyone and behave very well indeed. |
We have a book that is a bunch of nonsense that people can interpreted whethever they like. Any analysis is just as baised as the others. |
Okay. You're being obtuse. We get it. Congratulations on not seeing. |
You are clearly interpreting your fairytales differently than other Christians on this forum. Are you the only real Christian? Based on your past statements, I would say your answer would be "Yes" if you choose to answer that at all |
I would have to say he has a lot of passion but I am like a mulsim for example I refuse to go into deep detail about my faith because people will attack me for it as seen in other threads. |
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shrox
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 12, 2011
Posts: 3254
Location: OK let's go.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| 01001011 wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | "Christianity was not responsible for all of the atrocities done in its name, because all of those people were fake Christians!!!" -Christians hundreds of years later
I'm betting a few hundred years from now, a great deal of Christians will say the same thing about the Christians of this time |
You'd make a great point here -- if there were no manual people could reference on how to be a Christian.
Jesus: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Matt 5:44)
Jesus' doctrines are in a Book that virtually everyone has access to, so being wilfully blind as to what a Christian is, and then assuming that only the most evil of the those in all of history who called themselves "Christians" were the real Christians, is obviously a total intentional bias aimed at a pre-determined conclusion. You get out of analysis what you put into it. If you want to see Christians as evil, you will, even when Jesus said His true followers love everyone and behave very well indeed. |
We have a book that is a bunch of nonsense that people can interpreted whethever they like. Any analysis is just as baised as the others. |
Point out the nonsense. Verse by verse. |
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shrox
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 12, 2011
Posts: 3254
Location: OK let's go.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | 01001011 wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | "Christianity was not responsible for all of the atrocities done in its name, because all of those people were fake Christians!!!" -Christians hundreds of years later
I'm betting a few hundred years from now, a great deal of Christians will say the same thing about the Christians of this time |
You'd make a great point here -- if there were no manual people could reference on how to be a Christian.
Jesus: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Matt 5:44)
Jesus' doctrines are in a Book that virtually everyone has access to, so being wilfully blind as to what a Christian is, and then assuming that only the most evil of the those in all of history who called themselves "Christians" were the real Christians, is obviously a total intentional bias aimed at a pre-determined conclusion. You get out of analysis what you put into it. If you want to see Christians as evil, you will, even when Jesus said His true followers love everyone and behave very well indeed. |
We have a book that is a bunch of nonsense that people can interpreted whethever they like. Any analysis is just as baised as the others. |
Okay. You're being obtuse. We get it. Congratulations on not seeing. |
You are clearly interpreting your fairytales differently than other Christians on this forum. Are you the only real Christian? Based on your past statements, I would say your answer would be "Yes" if you choose to answer that at all |
You were asked not to deride others beliefs in the manner in which you have. You'll stoop to anything it seems... |
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| shrox wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | 01001011 wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | "Christianity was not responsible for all of the atrocities done in its name, because all of those people were fake Christians!!!" -Christians hundreds of years later
I'm betting a few hundred years from now, a great deal of Christians will say the same thing about the Christians of this time |
You'd make a great point here -- if there were no manual people could reference on how to be a Christian.
Jesus: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Matt 5:44)
Jesus' doctrines are in a Book that virtually everyone has access to, so being wilfully blind as to what a Christian is, and then assuming that only the most evil of the those in all of history who called themselves "Christians" were the real Christians, is obviously a total intentional bias aimed at a pre-determined conclusion. You get out of analysis what you put into it. If you want to see Christians as evil, you will, even when Jesus said His true followers love everyone and behave very well indeed. |
We have a book that is a bunch of nonsense that people can interpreted whethever they like. Any analysis is just as baised as the others. |
Okay. You're being obtuse. We get it. Congratulations on not seeing. |
You are clearly interpreting your fairytales differently than other Christians on this forum. Are you the only real Christian? Based on your past statements, I would say your answer would be "Yes" if you choose to answer that at all |
You were asked not to deride others beliefs in the manner in which you have. You'll stoop to anything it seems... |
At least I will not stoop to such lows I have no problem with anyones belief or non religious beleif. |
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Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 12091
Location: La belle province
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| shrox wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | 01001011 wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | "Christianity was not responsible for all of the atrocities done in its name, because all of those people were fake Christians!!!" -Christians hundreds of years later
I'm betting a few hundred years from now, a great deal of Christians will say the same thing about the Christians of this time |
You'd make a great point here -- if there were no manual people could reference on how to be a Christian.
Jesus: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Matt 5:44)
Jesus' doctrines are in a Book that virtually everyone has access to, so being wilfully blind as to what a Christian is, and then assuming that only the most evil of the those in all of history who called themselves "Christians" were the real Christians, is obviously a total intentional bias aimed at a pre-determined conclusion. You get out of analysis what you put into it. If you want to see Christians as evil, you will, even when Jesus said His true followers love everyone and behave very well indeed. |
We have a book that is a bunch of nonsense that people can interpreted whethever they like. Any analysis is just as baised as the others. |
Okay. You're being obtuse. We get it. Congratulations on not seeing. |
You are clearly interpreting your fairytales differently than other Christians on this forum. Are you the only real Christian? Based on your past statements, I would say your answer would be "Yes" if you choose to answer that at all |
You were asked not to deride others beliefs in the manner in which you have. You'll stoop to anything it seems... |
Nobody ever asked me that. Calling the Bible fairytales is not all that derisive since that is essentially what it is. Additionally Ragtime's "beliefs" are derisive of basically any contradiction but I do not see you raising issue with that
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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shrox
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 12, 2011
Posts: 3254
Location: OK let's go.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't why I am feeling all snippy today. I'll calm down... |
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AngelRho
Synclavier owner/operator
Joined: Jan 05, 2008
Posts: 3726
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Joker wrote: | | I would have to say he has a lot of passion but I am like a mulsim for example I refuse to go into deep detail about my faith because people will attack me for it as seen in other threads. |
You certainly have to do what you feel is right. But any attacks you get on your faith here will ultimately have little consequence in the grand scheme of things. I don't think you should post an entire book on your faith in here, but you shouldn't let those who believe differently dissuade you from describing what you believe.
My attitude is that any belief not worth questioning is a belief not worth having. As a personal rule, I tend to avoid getting lured into discussions by fellow believers whose doctrinal influences aren't too far removed from my own. The reason being I think it's more important for those of us who are faithful to at least make a show of unity. But even if someone claims to be a Christian and expresses views that seem heretical or unorthodox to me, not to mention faulty reasoning, I'll attack those views at length just as much as I've attacked false claims against our faith from unbelievers.
A lot of what I've seen from Christians has mostly been right on track. Even if your beliefs come under attack and you don't know how to respond, all it means is that you're just missing a part of the picture. Turn the computer off for a few hours, search for relevant scriptural passages, come back, do a little research, and whatever answer it is you're missing will eventually become pretty obvious to you. I haven't abandoned my faith at all since I've started posting here, but I've enjoyed the challenges and am happy that I've gotten a little bit deeper into this whole faith thing. I think it's a shame it's taken me some 20 years to get here in my faith, but it's a great place to be. Don't give up. |
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01001011
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 04, 2010
Posts: 825
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| shrox wrote: |
Point out the nonsense. Verse by verse. |
By nonsense I mean the bible is too vague to have any useful content. As Vigilans pointed out, either Ragtime's interpretation is the only valid one or not, if the bible were concrete.
Would you open an astrology column and point out the nonsense paragraph by paragraph? |
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shrox
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 12, 2011
Posts: 3254
Location: OK let's go.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: |
Nobody ever asked me that. Calling the Bible fairytales is not all that derisive since that is essentially what it is. Additionally Ragtime's "beliefs" are derisive of basically any contradiction but I do not see you raising issue with that |
Fine, show me the fairies... |
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Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 12091
Location: La belle province
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| shrox wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: |
Nobody ever asked me that. Calling the Bible fairytales is not all that derisive since that is essentially what it is. Additionally Ragtime's "beliefs" are derisive of basically any contradiction but I do not see you raising issue with that |
Fine, show me the fairies... |
Talking snake, burning bushes that speak, Eve being made from a rib, resurrection, parting of the Red Sea, immaculate conception, every species living near Noah's house (and fitting on his boat)... etc
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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