Joined: Jul 27, 2008 Age: 48 Posts: 2612 Location: Australia
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:27 am Post subject: God sacrificed his only son to absolve our sins???
Amongst the many beliefs christians adhere to this one really confounds me. Firstly, god did not sacrifice his only son, according to christian belief Jesus gets taken off the cross and then a day or so later gets up,heads out of the cave, says G'day to all his mates, then heads on home.
Secondly an all powerful god can think of no better way to forgive our transgressions than to brutally torture his son??? The same son who some believe (just to really compound the inconsistencies of the story) is god himself.
Can someone please try to explain where my thought processes have gone awry, because surely billions of christians cant be hoodwinked by the story as I perceive it. _________________ "I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance anyday"
Douglas Adams
"Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand" Karl Marx
Joined: Jun 20, 2008 Age: 24 Posts: 12091 Location: La belle province
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:37 am Post subject:
It was part of an arcane ritual needed for Jesus' ascension to Lichdom _________________ Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
For some further reading on the subject. It's a bit complex to explain in a little messageboard post, but those two things should be enough of a springboard for you to go off.
Quote:
The orthodox St. Athanasius proposed a theory of the atonement which similarly states that sin leads to death and God warned Adam about this, and so, to remain consistent with Himself must have Jesus die for sins, or have humankind die. This has some similarity to the Satisfaction view, although St. Athanasius emphasized the fact that this death is effective because of our unity with Christ, rather than emphasizing a legal substitution and that when Jesus descended into Hades (variously, the underworld or Hell) he eliminated death with His own death (since no power can hold Jesus's soul in Hades) .[4]
But yeah, Satisfaction wasn't really on the radar as a viewpoint (unless you count possibly Augustine's writings) in Christianity until 1100s or 1200s. But, books upon books have been written about the subject, and yeah... _________________ Too kawaii to live...
Too sugoi to die!
The real way to understand this is to think of God's psychology.
God wrote:
Damn, I really want to cause other sentient beings and myself pain. Too bad there ain't no other sentient beings. Hey, since I'm all powerful, I might as well create 'em.
PRESTO = = > Humans, the earth, etc, etc.
God wrote:
Now, it's time to come up with some convoluted moral system whereby, if you disobey me before having knowledge of morality, you'll deserve torture and so will your infinite generations of kids. As well, 'cause a woman who is the progenitor of all modern people, tempted Adam (while still possessing child-like innocence) into eating the forbidden fruit, I'll also use that as an excuse to make childbirth a real pain. I know this will all happen thanks to my omniscience giving me divine foresight, plus as an omnipresent being I'm simultaneously present in all time-points of the universe (while also transcending all of them).
PRESTO === > Stupid moral dynamics
PRESTO === > Painful childbirth for women
God wrote:
Okay, that was fun. But I need to cause myself some pain. Damn, those Romans sure look like real dominating forces. Okay, to absolve Adam and Eve's transgressions, I will reincarnate myself as my son (while still remaining the father as a separate but the same entity as well as being something called the "Holy Ghost" as well) in a flesh and blood body to be brutally tortured. This will be FUN.
Joined: May 02, 2008 Posts: 2096 Location: Uhhh...Not Remulak
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:39 am Post subject:
Two scenarios come to mind.
1 Everything in the Bible is true, and the people who wrote it were inspired by the god of the Bible with the entire text. Same for the translators.
Or...
2 Early scriptural writings were a mishmash of deluded people and others trying to sway people to give power to certain people, like religious hierarchy. Later scriptural writings were made up to justify the bizarre and contradictory nature of the earlier writings. Kind of like telling a lie and needing more and more elaborate lies to explain the earlier ones. Some of it might actually be based on historical facts, but subject to interpretation. How much of this is literal and how much metaphorical? Unfortunately, none of the original authors are around to interview.
The Bible says that I must accept what the Bible says or face consequences. I would say scenario number 2 is more likely despite this warning to believe in the truth of the Bible.
Joined: Aug 17, 2006 Age: 40 Posts: 2426 Location: Ontario
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:56 am Post subject:
Child sacrifice is just a recurring motif in the myths and religions of the area. The Canaanites and Phoenicians practiced it, and modern archaeology and anthropology seems to suggest that the Hebrews were an offshoot of Canaanite culture. It would also seem that the Hebrews themselves practiced it from time to time, particularly in connection with the Valley of Hinnom. See for instance Ezek. 20:25-26, not to mention numerous accounts of Israelites making child sacrifice to pagan gods as well (eg 1 Kgs. 11:7-8, 2 Kings. 3:26-27, 2 Kgs. 17:16-18, 2 Kgs. 16:2-3, 2 Kings 17:7, 2 Kgs. 21:6, 2 Chron. 33:6, 2 Kgs. 23:10, Jer. 32:35, Jer. 19:3-5, Ezek. 16:20-21)
I'm getting a little tired of all the blasphemy. That's all I want to say right now. I don't think it proves or conveys anything except what is in the hearts of those who speak it.
Jesus: "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies..." (Matt 15:19) _________________ Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
For some further reading on the subject. It's a bit complex to explain in a little messageboard post, but those two things should be enough of a springboard for you to go off.
Quote:
The orthodox St. Athanasius proposed a theory of the atonement which similarly states that sin leads to death and God warned Adam about this, and so, to remain consistent with Himself must have Jesus die for sins, or have humankind die. This has some similarity to the Satisfaction view, although St. Athanasius emphasized the fact that this death is effective because of our unity with Christ, rather than emphasizing a legal substitution and that when Jesus descended into Hades (variously, the underworld or Hell) he eliminated death with His own death (since no power can hold Jesus's soul in Hades) .[4]
But yeah, Satisfaction wasn't really on the radar as a viewpoint (unless you count possibly Augustine's writings) in Christianity until 1100s or 1200s. But, books upon books have been written about the subject, and yeah...
So let me see if I get this Christus Victor stuff right... Jesus has become a reverse concept of some sort? So basically he is the allegory of any person caught in true belief in religion. In essence, those who believed Jesus died for their sins in a mystical transsubstantiation thingy or remain ignorant of the real allegory are actually the ones who are suffering in ignorance. It is they who are suffering because all are taught religion in one form or another and if you aren't the people they like, they don't tell you how it works. So the "evil" people suffer in ignorance and identifiable to all those who are judged to be "good" by their understanding of communication? No wonder there are so many Atheist Aspies. Does anyone else see what's going on here?
I think this is rather something of a torture. But I guess this is what they allegory it to... Still it is a very disgusting way of raising children. I'll be sure to make sure mine are Atheists... So how do you tell someone that their story tells a different story?
I'm getting a little tired of all the blasphemy. That's all I want to say right now. I don't think it proves or conveys anything except what is in the hearts of those who speak it.
Jesus: "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies..." (Matt 15:19)
1 Everything in the Bible is true, and the people who wrote it were inspired by the god of the Bible with the entire text. Same for the translators.
Or...
2 Early scriptural writings were a mishmash of deluded people and others trying to sway people to give power to certain people, like religious hierarchy. Later scriptural writings were made up to justify the bizarre and contradictory nature of the earlier writings. Kind of like telling a lie and needing more and more elaborate lies to explain the earlier ones. Some of it might actually be based on historical facts, but subject to interpretation. How much of this is literal and how much metaphorical? Unfortunately, none of the original authors are around to interview.
The Bible says that I must accept what the Bible says or face consequences. I would say scenario number 2 is more likely despite this warning to believe in the truth of the Bible.
It's the first one, but god is just the people, human beings playing god by creating the social pretense of their belief in god which is really themselves! It's all circular and stuff... They justify themselves. Religion in effect trains the "good" people to be sociopaths through their acceptance of god and the system of belief. The system of religion is in fact no less a system than anything else that might be termed a system. To be clear it is a system nearly equal in size and power to the internet.
