ruveyn
Phoenix
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Age: 76
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Location: New Jersey
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 Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: How do you deal with cognitive dissonance? |
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[quote="WilliamWDelaney"]
I make mistakes every day.
Do you?
I was a professional logician so I generally do not make logical errors. My errors are of a factual nature, by and large.
ruveyn |
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NarcissusSavage
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 03, 2009
Age: 31
Posts: 656
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:46 am Post subject: Re: How do you deal with cognitive dissonance? |
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| ruveyn wrote: | quote="WilliamWDelaney"]
I make mistakes every day.
Do you?
I was a professional logician so I generally do not make logical errors. My errors are of a factual nature, by and large.
ruveyn |
Or formatting...
On point, Ruv generally has factual errors if he has errors. Sometimes though, it may seem that he makes a logical fallacy, and that is likely because he just states the conclusion to his argument and doesn’t even explain how he got there.
Although, if one were to get technical, that is a pretty large fallacy…
Not trying to hate, Ruv, I usually have similar conclusions as you…just saying, sometimes they come out of left field and make people wonder how you ever got to where you are. (Ie. What led you to the conclusion you have)
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I am Ignostic.
Go ahead and define god, with universal acceptance of said definition.
I'll wait.
Maybe you are too?
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Bobble
Butterfly
Joined: Apr 20, 2012
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:44 am Post subject: |
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It is a good question and made me think. Thank you.
My beleif in a thing does not require that it be true or supported by any logical argument.
My logical argument does not require that I beleive that the premis underlying it is true.
For me logic and beleif are just tools for doing a job and I get to choose which ever one works best for the job. I don't have a problem with cognitive dissonence because i can choose what I beleive. There are no permanent absolutes in my world because I am comfortable with not being completely sure about anything. |
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:38 am Post subject: Re: How do you deal with cognitive dissonance? |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | Unspecified wrote: | I thought of putting this in the intolerance thread, but that thread is so full of intolerance I thought maybe a separate thread would be a better idea. 
I have one question to those of you who are both religious and critical thinkers:
How do you deal with the cognitive dissonance that arises when you are rightly accused of a logical fallacy?
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I seek out the error I committed and try to understand why I committed it, so I will not do the same thing again in the future. How do you handle your mistakes?
ruveyn |
I do pretty much what ruveyn does. |
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Unspecified
Sea Gull
Joined: Jan 05, 2012
Age: 45
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:23 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for your replies.
I think I said something in the first post about how I deal with these things for myself. I have an internal debate, and the "better" view wins, no matter how dear the original view was to me.
WilliamWDelaney, I laughed when I read that. I'm somewhat guilty of that myself, although I believe I have gotten better at holding back.
Ruveyn, I do exactly what you do, of course. I revisit my argument, seek out the logical errors, and refine or reform my arguments. My question was what you do if you find out that the logical error you made causes a conflict with your deeply held religious views. My deeply held positions can be dear to me and it can be really hard to have to let go of core ideas. The whole point of my question is to try to understand how this kind of situation is resolved when one of the conflicting ideas comes from your religion. I am assuming that this must cause some deep thought, and that is what interests me. Do you go into this internal tug-of-war with the intention to find a way to keep your religious position?
Bobble, Thanks for your reply. I find that position really interesting, and I am certainly guilty of holding strong opinions where I have accepted the underlying truth or logic without performing the experiments myself, so to speak. In that way I agree that I choose my own truth, but I think that the way my mind works I could never hold a belief without having a strong feeling that the underlying logic holds, and that this logic is working on some form of truth. This has made me leave behind some formerly deeply held political views, for instance. That can hurt, but living is learning, and I'd worry more if I got everything right at 13...
Follow-up question, then, for everybody: Have you ever changed your mind about a religious claim based on a "better" opposing argument? |
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snapcap
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Age: 31
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:19 am Post subject: |
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You need to consider that religion doesn't have a formal logic to it. And for that, you really shouldn't worry about it.
If you're really that unsure about your beliefs, do you really believe them?
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*some atheist walks outside and picks up stick*
some atheist to stick: "You're like me!" |
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Bobble
Butterfly
Joined: Apr 20, 2012
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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In answer to your follow up question.
No.
If by 'religeous claim' you mean a claim based purely on unverifiable belief then no because by definition it is not open to argument.
All argument can do is make it sound more or less plausible and it has long been my understanding that plausability and reliability are not related.
Religeous arguments are generally about if a thing is true or not and if there is no way to check then there is no reason to argue. It will remain a matter of personal belief.
More people believing a thing does not make it more true, it just makes it socially accepted. This is where it gets practical because if the crowd think all unbelievers must be burned at the stake or nailed to trees then I can choose to be a believer long enough to get out of dodge.
In my humble experience nothing in the whole of existence is certain..... but I could be wrong |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 14174
Location: Omnipresent
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Unspecified wrote: |
Follow-up question, then, for everybody: Have you ever changed your mind about a religious claim based on a "better" opposing argument? |
Yes. Mostly when evaluating specific theological claims, but not as much in the overall debate.
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Member of the WP Strident Atheists
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt128417.html |
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Dox47
Consigliere
Joined: Jan 29, 2008
Posts: 5187
Location: Seattle Area
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| Inyanook wrote: | I'm not religious, but this question does apply pretty well to any firmly held beliefs.
I do have a hard time with it. More often than not I know that the other person is correct in their criticisms of my opinion/argument, but I stick to it because yay, stubbornness. Or, well. It honestly depends on the demeanor of the other person. If they are attacking me (not merely arguing a point), then I will be highly defensive and stick to my guns in spite of the fact that I know they are neither loaded nor much more than toys.I am trying to work on that, though.
If they aren't attacking me, then I will rethink my position aloud during the course of the argument and may change my mind.
Always I will reconsider inwardly, it's just a matter of whether I outwardly let them know at the time. |
Would everyone who regularly uses this forum please reflect on the bold, underlined portion of that quote? Thank you.
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Unconditional allegiance is the surest way to render one’s beliefs and agenda irrelevant
Any power that government has to do something you like will invariably be used for something you abhor
Murum aries attigit |
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Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1654
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| I feel a sense of shame whenever somebody points out a flaw in my logic. But I try to use it as a learning experience. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 76
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Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Declension wrote: | | I feel a sense of shame whenever somebody points out a flaw in my logic. But I try to use it as a learning experience. |
Why be ashamed. All humans are error prone. Try to be as careful as you can, but even so you will make mistakes.
ruveyn |
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snapcap
Phoenix
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Age: 31
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see what the big fuss is about not being 100% logical. Don't you know logic is an invention? Worrying about not always being logical is a phantom fear.
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*some atheist walks outside and picks up stick*
some atheist to stick: "You're like me!" |
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Unspecified
Sea Gull
Joined: Jan 05, 2012
Age: 45
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| snapcap wrote: | You need to consider that religion doesn't have a formal logic to it. And for that, you really shouldn't worry about it.
If you're really that unsure about your beliefs, do you really believe them? |
Religion as such may not have a formal logic, but some of the claims made in the name of religion are presented as facts, and can be researched as facts. Either there was once a flood that covered all of the planet, or not. If you think the evidence against the flood and the story about Noah are strong, then you can either choose to keep believing the story and disregard the evidence, or you can change the way you look at some of the stories in the book, or in some cases it might change your entire view on your religion.
If you're asking me about my beliefs, you haven't really read this thread, have you. I change my position and opinions when presented with better ones. That's how I have changed from a kid who once thought the trees made wind by waving their branches, or thinking that cats like to be petted because they are so soft...
It has nothing to do with being unsure about my beliefs, it has to do with a philosophy of life. New and better knowledge changes my world view. Constantly. Even if it means letting go of cherished ideas. |
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snapcap
Phoenix
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Age: 31
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Unspecified wrote: | | snapcap wrote: | You need to consider that religion doesn't have a formal logic to it. And for that, you really shouldn't worry about it.
If you're really that unsure about your beliefs, do you really believe them? |
Religion as such may not have a formal logic, but some of the claims made in the name of religion are presented as facts, and can be researched as facts. Either there was once a flood that covered all of the planet, or not. If you think the evidence against the flood and the story about Noah are strong, then you can either choose to keep believing the story and disregard the evidence, or you can change the way you look at some of the stories in the book, or in some cases it might change your entire view on your religion. |
It either happens or it didn't and that's a fact? But the truth is where you think the truth lies? Maybe these two thoughts lay near the heart of your problem? But still, you shouldn't make it out to be a big deal. I'm assuming it is, because you've stated that you've had to reconsider all of your positions.
I'm not telling you to stop doing it, I'm just saying that because you might be causing yourself unnecessary grief.
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some atheist to stick: "You're like me!" |
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Unspecified
Sea Gull
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Age: 45
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Again, I don't think you understand what you are reading.
I am not asking for advice, I am asking for other people's experiences, because I'm curious about it.
I didn't say that anything was the truth, I said that IF you consider one of two possible scenarios to be more likely than the other AND this other one is what your religion tells you, THEN I want to hear how you deal with it. If not, not. If this kind of ongoing inner debate isn't part of how you arrive at your world view, then I'm not really interested in your world view anyway. |
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