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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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 Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Lord_Gareth wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | Vigilans wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | CrazyCatLord wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | CrazyCatLord wrote: | ... and to deceive impoverished, gullible people by telling them that condoms help spread AIDS instead of preventing it  But yes, they also collect money for the poor and destitute. How much of this money arrives at those in need is anyone's bet.
Mother Teresa raised vast amounts of money that was supposed to help starving people in Africa, flood victims in Bangladesh, and poor children in India. Much of it was donated by deeply religious people who were rather poor themselves. So where did it end up? Most of it just sat in the bank accounts of the Missionaries of Charity and gained interest ($50 million in one New York bank account, according to Christopher Hitchens). A lot of the rest was used to build additional nunneries and increase the number of unpaid foot soldiers of the Catholic Church. Only a small fraction was really applied to charitable purposes. |
That is what the Catholics have done not proestants. |
The Protestant churches are also quite wealthy. They don't have their own bank and their own little state full of priceless art and plundered cultural treasures (such as the largest repository of original Hebrew manuscripts that were stolen from massacred or forcefully converted Jews), but they do have vast land holdings, buildings, institutions and financial assets. They are businesses, not charities. |
I go to a very small methodist church we are not that wealthy we go to Costa Rica every year and do fund raisers to help out the poor in our community we even give out free food every week that we personally grow ourselfs. But it seems you will just view us all the same in the end even though we are not. |
If your church is not wealthy, why do you guys go to Costa Rica every year? |
We raise money by donig fund raisers to pay for the trip. |
So you siphon money from the already-destitute, removing it from the local economy, so you can go to another nation and make yourselves feel better about helping them rather than extending a hand to those in need at home.
Stiiiiiill not detecting the presence of any moral high ground. |
This year we went to Boone in NC and donated about three thousand clothes for the homless shelter in Boone which is the largest next week I am in charge of taking to youth to help do yard work for the eldery we do not do it to feel good or for a religious reason we do it for humanitarian reasons rather then a religious one.
When Katrina hit New Orleans I took the week off from school and a few youth memmebers did to so we could help clean of the damages and built peoples homes back. But not for a RELIGIOUS reason we do a lot of humanitarian work for our country and many other countries as well not to make ourselfs feel good or for a religious reason my church does a lot fo humanitarian work.
Next week we will be doing some fundraiser to help raise money for breast cancer research. |
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AspieAshley
Snowy Owl
Joined: Jan 16, 2012
Age: 24
Posts: 174
Location: Bloomington, MN
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:23 am Post subject: Re: God sacrificed his only son to absolve our sins??? |
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| DentArthurDent wrote: | | surely billions of christians cant be hoodwinked by the story as I perceive it. |
YES THEY CAN. This world is built on lies.
_________________
Letting go is not a skill--it's the lazy way out. The real skill is having the courage to stand up for yourself and demand justice.
I'm not mentally ill--the world is!
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American
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jan 18, 2012
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:30 am Post subject: |
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I don't see the problem with the logic of the Jesus story. It goes like this:
God told Adam and Eve not to eat an apple.
A snake told them to eat the apple and they did
God had a temper-tantrum and acted all offended even though he new forever that this was going to happen
God cursed humanity
Every human born was hopelessly damned with "original sin" because some pinheads at an apple thousands of years ago
But God wanted to forgive us for our distant ancestors eating the apple
So he came up with an utterly brilliant plan to forgive our original sin
He would send his only son to Earth (who was really him but not really)
Humans would beat, whip, torture, and brutally execute his son who was him
Once humans were so kind as to do this to God's son, I mean God, God forgave our horrible original sin of eating an apple.
Those of you who think there is some sort of problem with this story, clearly just don't understand how brilliant God is. |
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:30 am Post subject: Re: God sacrificed his only son to absolve our sins??? |
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| AspieAshley wrote: | | DentArthurDent wrote: | | surely billions of christians cant be hoodwinked by the story as I perceive it. |
YES THEY CAN. This world is built on lies. |
If the world is build on lies then how do we know what is truth? |
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iamnotaparakeet
Martian
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Age: 27
Posts: 25128
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:37 am Post subject: Re: God sacrificed his only son to absolve our sins??? |
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| DentArthurDent wrote: | Amongst the many beliefs christians adhere to this one really confounds me. Firstly, god did not sacrifice his only son, according to christian belief Jesus gets taken off the cross and then a day or so later gets up,heads out of the cave, says G'day to all his mates, then heads on home.
Secondly an all powerful god can think of no better way to forgive our transgressions than to brutally torture his son??? The same son who some believe (just to really compound the inconsistencies of the story) is god himself.
Can someone please try to explain where my thought processes have gone awry, because surely billions of christians cant be hoodwinked by the story as I perceive it. |
The need for sacrifice is established in Genesis and Leviticus, namely the blood sacrifice of animals prior to Christ's final sacrifice, in atonement for our transgressions - our disobedience to God's will. Isaiah 7, 9, & 53 identify that God would take on human flesh, become a human being, and in (I think it was) second Samuel or first Kings it was identified that he would be born to lineage of King David, hence why a lot of people kept calling Him the son of David. God could have just killed us off at the start when our first parents disobeyed His one rule then, but instead He provided a way of temporary atonement in the sacrifice of the animal there to cover their nakedness with clothes and in Genesis 3:15 He also promised that a permanent atonement would be provided also - that He would be born of a woman and that the devil would strike His heel, Himself, Christ the cornerstone whom the builders rejected, and He would crush the devil in that same event essentially. |
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NarcissusSavage
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 03, 2009
Age: 31
Posts: 657
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | I'm getting a little tired of all the blasphemy. That's all I want to say right now. I don't think it proves or conveys anything except what is in the hearts of those who speak it.
Jesus: "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies..." (Matt 15:19) |
I that's hilarious that you use this quote. It suggests you think that questioning a book and not blindly following the word of others is as bad as murder, adultery, fornication, and theft.
The ironic part of it, I find...is that the line says "false witness" too. And from my perspective of the world, that is exactly what religion is! That is what Jesus is warning you against in this quote! Warning you against religion!
_________________
I am Ignostic.
Go ahead and define god, with universal acceptance of said definition.
I'll wait.
Maybe you are too?
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CrazyCatLord
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 25, 2011
Posts: 2177
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:03 am Post subject: Re: God sacrificed his only son to absolve our sins??? |
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| Joker wrote: | | AspieAshley wrote: | | DentArthurDent wrote: | | surely billions of christians cant be hoodwinked by the story as I perceive it. |
YES THEY CAN. This world is built on lies. |
If the world is build on lies then how do we know what is truth? |
Science  Millions of people put their trust and their money in homeopathy. Science says it's utter nonsense. Fortune tellers, tarot card readers and mediums also make a killing. Science says they're frauds. People spend their hard-earned bucks on healing crystals and little copper pyramids and magnets and anti-aging cream. Science says it's all bull. But nobody listens.
People want to be lied to, cheated and defrauded. They desperately want something to believe in, something that provides them with simple answers, the promise of fast results, and the illusion of a little more control over their lives. Well, it's their money. The world really is built on lies, countless people make a decent living by lying to their customers and followers and disciples, and nobody wants to listen to the educated people who actually know what they're talking about. People prefer to live in a world full of magic and angels and snake oil. |
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American
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jan 18, 2012
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| NarcissusSavage wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | I'm getting a little tired of all the blasphemy. That's all I want to say right now. I don't think it proves or conveys anything except what is in the hearts of those who speak it.
Jesus: "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies..." (Matt 15:19) |
I that's hilarious that you use this quote. It suggests you think that questioning a book and not blindly following the word of others is as bad as murder, adultery, fornication, and theft.
The ironic part of it, I find...is that the line says "false witness" too. And from my perspective of the world, that is exactly what religion is! That is what Jesus is warning you against in this quote! Warning you against religion! |
One of the infinitely many things wrong with Christianity is the Ten Commandments. Not having any other gods besides the "God" and not using God's name in vain are more important to "God" than not murdering another human being. This is silly. If this "God" is real, then I want no part of him. Can anyone say "large ego" or "insecure with his position as the most powerful being." Not even children believe this nonsense without it being pounded into their heads. |
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DentArthurDent
Evolve Ye Christians & Dozers
Joined: Jul 27, 2008
Age: 48
Posts: 2612
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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Keet, you have a deeper understanding of the bible, I still think what you believe is complete nonsense but at least you have a more complex way to explain the story. However most believers fully accept the basic story. God sent his ONLY son to his greatest creation, had him preach for a few years, then choose not to intervene when the local populace tortured and murdered him.
They then believe that by refusing to protect his son God performs the ultimate blood sacrifice to Humanity and thereby absolves us of our sins. Up tp this point the story is all well and good (as long as you accept the notion of meaningful blood sacrifice). But the ressurection negates the massive sacrifice that god made for us. Its a bit like giving all your money to charity, claiming all the kudos for such a wonderful gesture, then going to their bank and taking it all back. It just doe not stack up.
_________________
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance anyday"
Douglas Adams
"Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand" Karl Marx
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American
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jan 18, 2012
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| DentArthurDent wrote: | Keet, you have a deeper understanding of the bible, I still think what you believe is complete nonsense but at least you have a more complex way to explain the story. However most believers fully accept the basic story. God sent his ONLY son to his greatest creation, had him preach for a few years, then choose not to intervene when the local populace tortured and murdered him.
They then believe that by refusing to protect his son God performs the ultimate blood sacrifice to Humanity and thereby absolves us of our sins. Up tp this point the story is all well and good (as long as you accept the notion of meaningful blood sacrifice). But the ressurection negates the massive sacrifice that god made for us. Its a bit like giving all your money to charity, claiming all the kudos for such a wonderful gesture, then going to their bank and taking it all back. It just doe not stack up. |
I don't think this story is all well up to that point at all. Humans made God angry. In order to forgive us, he had humans torture and brutally kill him. If I was mad at you for eating my favorite apple that I told you not to eat (even though a talking snake that I created to trick you told you so) and then I said, years later, "I'm ready to forgive you for your horrible sin." And then I say "All that you have to do is beat me, mock me, put a crown of thorns on my head whip me, torture, force me to carry a cross up a hill, than leave me there to die." How dumb is that? If my father got mad at someone for something trivial and then told that person he would forgive them if they did what they did to Jesus to me, they would think he was insane and rightly so. Even if there were no talking snakes... |
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: God sacrificed his only son to absolve our sins??? |
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| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | AspieAshley wrote: | | DentArthurDent wrote: | | surely billions of christians cant be hoodwinked by the story as I perceive it. |
YES THEY CAN. This world is built on lies. |
If the world is build on lies then how do we know what is truth? |
Science Millions of people put their trust and their money in homeopathy. Science says it's utter nonsense. Fortune tellers, tarot card readers and mediums also make a killing. Science says they're frauds. People spend their hard-earned bucks on healing crystals and little copper pyramids and magnets and anti-aging cream. Science says it's all bull. But nobody listens.
People want to be lied to, cheated and defrauded. They desperately want something to believe in, something that provides them with simple answers, the promise of fast results, and the illusion of a little more control over their lives. Well, it's their money. The world really is built on lies, countless people make a decent living by lying to their customers and followers and disciples, and nobody wants to listen to the educated people who actually know what they're talking about. People prefer to live in a world full of magic and angels and snake oil. |
Umm plenty of religious people where scienctist umm Like Charles Darwin who was a christian not a atheist. And science can explain things but then another theory is created then other so many theory on a lot of things some of disprooven some are not. |
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Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Age: 25
Posts: 12113
Location: La belle province
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:53 pm Post subject: Re: God sacrificed his only son to absolve our sins??? |
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| Joker wrote: | | CrazyCatLord wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | AspieAshley wrote: | | DentArthurDent wrote: | | surely billions of christians cant be hoodwinked by the story as I perceive it. |
YES THEY CAN. This world is built on lies. |
If the world is build on lies then how do we know what is truth? |
Science Millions of people put their trust and their money in homeopathy. Science says it's utter nonsense. Fortune tellers, tarot card readers and mediums also make a killing. Science says they're frauds. People spend their hard-earned bucks on healing crystals and little copper pyramids and magnets and anti-aging cream. Science says it's all bull. But nobody listens.
People want to be lied to, cheated and defrauded. They desperately want something to believe in, something that provides them with simple answers, the promise of fast results, and the illusion of a little more control over their lives. Well, it's their money. The world really is built on lies, countless people make a decent living by lying to their customers and followers and disciples, and nobody wants to listen to the educated people who actually know what they're talking about. People prefer to live in a world full of magic and angels and snake oil. |
Umm plenty of religious people where scienctist umm Like Charles Darwin who was a christian not a atheist. And science can explain things but then another theory is created then other so many theory on a lot of things some of disprooven some are not. |
That does not matter one bit whether a scientist is religious or not. Theism is not what guides the methodology he or she uses to make scientific discoveries. Furthermore the fact that theories change or are thrown out is one of the best things about science. It is the search for truth. It is the height of ignorance to criticize scientific method for not having total consensus on every matter like religion. The unmoving and uninspired nature of religion is the antithesis of discovery and knowledge. It feeds on ignorance
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: God sacrificed his only son to absolve our sins??? |
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| Vigilans wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | CrazyCatLord wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | AspieAshley wrote: | | DentArthurDent wrote: | | surely billions of christians cant be hoodwinked by the story as I perceive it. |
YES THEY CAN. This world is built on lies. |
If the world is build on lies then how do we know what is truth? |
Science Millions of people put their trust and their money in homeopathy. Science says it's utter nonsense. Fortune tellers, tarot card readers and mediums also make a killing. Science says they're frauds. People spend their hard-earned bucks on healing crystals and little copper pyramids and magnets and anti-aging cream. Science says it's all bull. But nobody listens.
People want to be lied to, cheated and defrauded. They desperately want something to believe in, something that provides them with simple answers, the promise of fast results, and the illusion of a little more control over their lives. Well, it's their money. The world really is built on lies, countless people make a decent living by lying to their customers and followers and disciples, and nobody wants to listen to the educated people who actually know what they're talking about. People prefer to live in a world full of magic and angels and snake oil. |
Umm plenty of religious people where scienctist umm Like Charles Darwin who was a christian not a atheist. And science can explain things but then another theory is created then other so many theory on a lot of things some of disprooven some are not. |
That does not matter one bit whether a scientist is religious or not. Theism is not what guides the methodology he or she uses to make scientific discoveries. Furthermore the fact that theories change or are thrown out is one of the best things about science. It is the search for truth. It is the height of ignorance to criticize scientific method for not having total consensus on every matter like religion. The unmoving and uninspired nature of religion is the antithesis of discovery and knowledge. It feeds on ignorance |
Charles Darwin the man who wrote the book on "Origion of Species" Was a religious person sure it does not matter that he was. And I know theism is not what gudied him he was being secular Charles Darwin would not let his Faith interfear with his sciencentific reseacher. Nor do I as I have stated I like to keep them seperate I have my faith which is apart of me but I do not blindly follow it as others do but I still believe in God. And most of my close friends in school where non theists it seems to me that most non theists think all people who are religious follow their faith blindly or that they are consumed by it this isnt true at all when it comes to proestants but is correct when it comes to Catholics who are anti-science. |
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LKL
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Age: 37
Posts: 5741
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| ^Darwin was probably an agnostic or an atheist by the time he died, though at one point, when he was young, he had the intent to go into the clergy. There are other scientists you can cite as believers - Isaac Newton being a big one from history, and Francis Collins in the present time. It's not terribly unusual for mathematicians to be believers, and physicists can be as well; biologists tend to be the scientists least likely to be believers in any religion. |
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| LKL wrote: | | ^Darwin was probably an agnostic or an atheist by the time he died, though at one point, when he was young, he had the intent to go into the clergy. There are other scientists you can cite as believers - Isaac Newton being a big one from history, and Francis Collins in the present time. It's not terribly unusual for mathematicians to be believers, and physicists can be as well; biologists tend to be the scientists least likely to be believers in any religion. |
Thank you for saying this the main reason I broght up religious people being invovled in science was because a lot of fellow church goers to not believe that you can be religious and a scienitist of any kind at the same time when that is nonsense. |
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