hyperlexian
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 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:01 am Post subject: |
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moved from Random Discussion to Women's Discussion
i have to say.... i think this reinforces the point that 15 year old girls are not really valued or noticed in our society unless they are attractive and dressed in a revealing manner. nobody talks about the quiet mousy humble intellectual drably-dressed 15 year-olds - and they do exist, i assure you. many people in our society (i.e. a few in this thread) are so busy judging the females in skimpy clothing that the other females are not noticed. it speaks volumes that people are even having this conversation.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:09 am Post subject: |
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also, who the heck cares what they wear? you can't tell a darn thing about them from their clothing. dressing promiscuously does not equal acting promiscuously, and either way - it's none of our business.
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CrazyCatLord
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | i have to say.... i think this reinforces the point that 15 year old girls are not really valued or noticed in our society unless they are attractive and dressed in a revealing manner. nobody talks about the quiet mousy humble intellectual drably-dressed 15 year-olds - and they do exist, i assure you. |
You could say the same about teenagers in general. Only that the boys feel ignored unless they act out, do incredibly stupid things, drive ridiculously fast, engage in vandalism, or otherwise prove their courage. Or get into fights and arguments, and display their dominance by picking on weaker kids. All in front of girls if possible.
If you're a shy and quiet male teenager, nobody notices you either. You only get attention from bullies (and their giggling girlfriends whom they're trying to impress with this behavior). And your own parents will assume that you're gay or otherwise strange because you never go out with girls. If you were their daughter, they might be proud that you have the good sense to stay away from boys and focus on your studies. But as a boy, you're expected to prove your heterosexual prowess and your ability to fend for yourself, even to your own family.
Now that I'm older, I don't take teenagers serious either. Why should I? They certainly don't behave as if they wanted to be taken serious. Unless they're autistic, their frontal lobes have taken some time off when they hit puberty and will report back for duty in their twenties. In the meantime, they're little more than chimps. Aggressive, loud-mouthed, dangerous chimps. Especially the males, and especially when they happen to be in female company. I feel threatened when I see a gang of teens at a street corner, and I've noticed that other, non-anxious adults feel the same way. I sometimes think teenagers should be shipped off to some remote educational facility at age 12 where they're schooled and supervised by professional educators, and only be re-introduced into society when their frontal lobe is fully developed and functional (i.e., around age 25).
PS: I hope that I'm still allowed to participate in this thread, seeing that it's in Women's Discussion now  I don't really understand why this is a topic for women only. Do men have no business discussing the behavior of female teenagers? |
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Kjas
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | also, who the heck cares what they wear? you can't tell a darn thing about them from their clothing. dressing promiscuously does not equal acting promiscuously, and either way - it's none of our business. |
I don't even think we have established what is considered "promiscuous" in the first place in reference to clothing (pictures would be helpful). There really isn't any frame of reference yet for that thread, so different people could be talking about different things and we wouldn't know about it.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:47 am Post subject: |
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men can post in here, as long as the posts are respectful.
i agree that something similar can sometimes be said about people not taking teenage boys seriously, but when was the last time someone picked on teenaged males in general for how they dress? i don't recall men being ridiculed for dressing in a way that appears sexually promiscuous.
i think you are making an unfair assumption about teenagers and their behaviour. you're falling into exactly the same trap that i was talking about - only noticing the ones that offend you, whilst overlooking the rest of them. what about the 17 year-old doing humanitarian work, or the 16 year-old lobbying for animal rights? it's easy to pick on the ones who APPEAR to be unserious and frivolous, but it is a mistake to overlook the ones who are nothing like that.
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| Kjas wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | also, who the heck cares what they wear? you can't tell a darn thing about them from their clothing. dressing promiscuously does not equal acting promiscuously, and either way - it's none of our business. |
I don't even think we have established what is considered "promiscuous" in the first place in reference to clothing (pictures would be helpful). There really isn't any frame of reference yet for that thread, so different people could be talking about different things and we wouldn't know about it. |
true. it doesn't even matter, really - it's clothing.
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edgewaters
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:04 am Post subject: |
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Childhood is all about finding boundaries, testing limits. Seems natural for kids to take all kinds of behaviours to some extreme, just to see where the boundaries lie and how this or that suits them.
Kids are still rebelling against social attitudes from the 1950s, that don't even exist anymore. Why? Who knows, but eventually they figure it out. |
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mechanicalgirl39
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| CrazyCatLord wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | i have to say.... i think this reinforces the point that 15 year old girls are not really valued or noticed in our society unless they are attractive and dressed in a revealing manner. nobody talks about the quiet mousy humble intellectual drably-dressed 15 year-olds - and they do exist, i assure you. |
You could say the same about teenagers in general. Only that the boys feel ignored unless they act out, do incredibly stupid things, drive ridiculously fast, engage in vandalism, or otherwise prove their courage. Or get into fights and arguments, and display their dominance by picking on weaker kids. All in front of girls if possible.
If you're a shy and quiet male teenager, nobody notices you either. You only get attention from bullies (and their giggling girlfriends whom they're trying to impress with this behavior). And your own parents will assume that you're gay or otherwise strange because you never go out with girls. If you were their daughter, they might be proud that you have the good sense to stay away from boys and focus on your studies. But as a boy, you're expected to prove your heterosexual prowess and your ability to fend for yourself, even to your own family.
Now that I'm older, I don't take teenagers serious either. Why should I? They certainly don't behave as if they wanted to be taken serious. Unless they're autistic, their frontal lobes have taken some time off when they hit puberty and will report back for duty in their twenties. In the meantime, they're little more than chimps. Aggressive, loud-mouthed, dangerous chimps. Especially the males, and especially when they happen to be in female company. I feel threatened when I see a gang of teens at a street corner, and I've noticed that other, non-anxious adults feel the same way. I sometimes think teenagers should be shipped off to some remote educational facility at age 12 where they're schooled and supervised by professional educators, and only be re-introduced into society when their frontal lobe is fully developed and functional (i.e., around age 25).
PS: I hope that I'm still allowed to participate in this thread, seeing that it's in Women's Discussion now I don't really understand why this is a topic for women only. Do men have no business discussing the behavior of female teenagers? |
Well done. You have just labeled all teenagers everywhere based on what a few immature thugs do.
And I'm extremely sceptical of putting any social problem purely down to biology. Blaming antisocial behaviour on biology completely ignores the fact that whole cultures teach boys to be 'tough', destructive, and unempathic.
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starkid
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:20 am Post subject: Re: Why females aren't taken seriously |
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| Mercurial wrote: | | RightGalaxy wrote: | | Who is to blame??!! |
Clearly, you think they are to blame. You unyieldingly place the blame on women (and we're women, not 'females') for not valuing themselves, not seeing themselves as sex objects, sexualizing themselves and thinking "their vaginas are the sum total of themselves". Why are you even talking? |
My interpretation was that the OP recognized these thoughts in girls' heads, but thought that someone else had put them there. And "women" typically applies to adult females only. Clearly, we are including young girls in the discussion.
To me, it is obvious that the clothing marketed to females (I speak of clothing in the U.S. because that's what I know, but it applies to the burqua, etc. and likely clothing in other societies as well) is a sign of misogyny. The clothes are typically clearly designed to visually titillate whatever is currently considered sexy by heterosexual men, they are tighter and restrict movement more than the clothing marketed to males, even in the case where freedom of movement is essential (exercise clothing). The clothing is made of thinner, more delicate material, which suggests that it is primarily for show (in my experience wearing both kinds, clothing for women wears out faster). The palette of colors used mirror the sex-specific color codes (primary colors for males, some primary, but many pastels for females). All these things - controlling/restricting women's movement, regarding women's bodies as entertainment for men, sexed color codes that are part of keeping a clear division between male and female - are part of the oppression of women.
In some sense, they are doing what they want by dressing this way, however, what many people want is to fit in, be accepted, conform. So, they end up conforming to misogynistic clothing choices. Their "choice" is very restricted, because they face everything from ostracism to bullying by not conforming. Older women who are conforming influence girls. They buy this clothing for their daughters, often refusing to let them dress in a non-feminine manner, continuing the pressure/brainwashing cycle. Different excuses for the female dress code may be given - cultural, religious, etc., but it's all a front for misogyny.
It's obvious that few people would actually freely choose to wear the things marketed to females. Who wants to deal with the discomfort of having tiny shorts that stick up into one's asscrack all day? Take some high heels to a country where women win no social points for wearing them, and see how many you can convince to put up with the uncomfortable, even painful, difficult-to-walk-in, awkward things. But women are inured to discomforting clothing from a young age (scratchy tights, for example), and there is that pressure to conform.
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Mindsigh
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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As an average-looking grown woman approaching middle age who has always dressed modestly due to body issues and an off-kilter sense of style, I just want to say that the amount of cleavage or assage show seems to not have any effect on whether or not I get taken seriously. My ex used to pat me on the head and say, "Good girl," whenever I did something which he approved of, until I told him, "I'm not a f%^&ing Golden Retriever!"
I was reading about a writer (male) who was very absent minded and often would forget where he was going when he was halfway there because he was always thinking about his work. He is considered a genius. If I were to do the same exact thing (which I have, actually) I am considered a ditz.  On the other hand, I don't have a huge body of literary masterpieces and deep, insightful newspaper columns to counter this impression. |
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Bunnynose
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Why females aren't taken seriously |
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| RightGalaxy wrote: | | ... Do they think that their vaginas are the sum total of themselves? .... |
So harsh. So vulgar. lol
No wonder we women aren't taken seriously -- we're quick to belittle and judge each and play the blame game. Like unhappy hens in a chicken coop, we squabble instead of finding common ground or offering guidance and maybe even a sense of decorum.
We women have met the enemy, and she is us. |
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Quantum_Immortal
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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(dude here)
do you girls realize that some thousands year back, we where all butt naked. Its Christianity that screw things up about nudity.
do you realize, that pear pressure cuts both ways. Back in old days, when you had to cover up, that too was pear pressure.
Pear pressure, affects what you want, it doesn't control you like a zombie.
as mentioned alredy, they are also evolutionary imperatives. Girls try to advertise to the males that .... they are "fertile".
Males must show that they dominate a bit women, then women get seduced, Or they don't get layed( nice guy), it means that he can provide for her. Also, when a woman is submissive, it amplifies the self esteem of the male, he takes more risks this way, in order to feed the kids and wife. Thats biological. Feminism is wrong. This is why women aren't taken seriously.
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Nymeria8
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder more about the question of how they can possibly be comfortable. That baffles me.
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deltafunction
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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15 year olds do stupid things. I wore revealing clothing when I was 15, so what, and I still do. The only difference now is that I realize when to wear it, and when I would be getting unwanted attention. That's only relevant for my own safety, as well as for dressing professionally.
I refuse to take a political standpoint on American women's clothing. Are we not all allowed to make our own choices regarding sexuality and sexual expression? It seems that women get it worse when they try to express their sexuality, and that is not just limited to clothing (think about a typical teenage boy's pastime, and how it is accepted vs women doing the same...)
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edgewaters
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Age: 40
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quantum_Immortal wrote: | | Males must show that they dominate a bit women, then women get seduced, Or they don't get layed( nice guy), it means that he can provide for her. Also, when a woman is submissive, it amplifies the self esteem of the male, he takes more risks this way, in order to feed the kids and wife. Thats biological. |
There is typical biology but there is no universal biology. In any species, individual phenotypes often deviate wildly from the norm. But animals don't have culture, there is no one forcing them to accept alien imperatives. That's the problem for humans - not ignoring biology but thinking there is an ideal biology for everyone. As a species we are so numerous and so phenotypically diverse (because of changes in natural selection) that it's foolish to assume there is any such thing as an ideal or universal biology. This is not true even among far less numerous and less diverse species. |
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