sage_gerard
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 21, 2012
Age: 22
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 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| DW_a_mom wrote: | The kinds of families that break up like that are usually one's that shouldn't have been together in the first place.
When you have real choices, you usually make better one's. |
Wow. Thanks. That made my parents' divorce much easier to process.  My parents were nothing more but fake choices because they were doomed to fail! Never mind victims of circumstance, the only "real" choices are soulmates!
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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i don't really get why the nuclear family is something to cherish. it's an old paradigm, and not a universal one. times are changing, and it is not necessarily bad.
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TM
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2012
Posts: 2122
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | i don't really get why the nuclear family is something to cherish. it's an old paradigm, and not a universal one. times are changing, and it is not necessarily bad. |
It is the natural paradigm of the human species, if it was not then things like pairbonding would be pointless. |
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21970
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| TM wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | i don't really get why the nuclear family is something to cherish. it's an old paradigm, and not a universal one. times are changing, and it is not necessarily bad. |
It is the natural paradigm of the human species, if it was not then things like pairbonding would be pointless. |
no, it's not necessarily the natural paradigm. it probably arose as a side effect of settled agricultural societies. and yes, pairbonding might be pointless for a lot of people. some do and some don't, but it's not really universal considering how often people engage in serial monogamy, cheating, divorce, polyamoury, etc.
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sage_gerard
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 21, 2012
Age: 22
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | i don't really get why the nuclear family is something to cherish. it's an old paradigm, and not a universal one. times are changing, and it is not necessarily bad. |
I was speaking in the context of when the nuclear family was considered the atomic unit of civilization. I did not say I felt it should be the standard today.
However, I do feel a family is important, regardless of its structure. I will be offering a son's perspective on this, but I must admit it is more emotional and rhetorical than rational. I do not want to get too personal, so I'll avoid sharing too much of my background. All I'll say is that my parents care so much about their post-divorce disputes with each other that they often do not see how it makes me feel.
Please understand I really wish I had a close-knit family. I have weak emotional connections in my family that are dwarfed by bonds with my friends. This bothers me because it makes me feel as if being related to someone directly by blood does not mean they won't feel like strangers. Even if society's idea of the family changes, I feel it is vitally important that a solid one exists for kids. The alternative is emotionally taxing, but it is likely to happen when parents focus more on their own independence than the relationships they've developed.
After your mother changes her last name to not share yours or your father's, mediating hundreds of phone calls between parents that refuse to talk to one another (even when it comes to issues that concern you), and listening to your father threaten to physically hurt your mother to your face, you start to secretly wish they did not have the choice to break up. You wish that they could not simply toss aside their responsibilities as parents. You wish that they could understand that in their pursuit for liberty, they destroy any emotional safety net for their kids that they once agreed to maintain.
I want emotional connections to my own blood. I can't really explain why, but I really do.
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"Sex, streams, friends accessing private members... Either I am just discovering unintentional innuendo or Stroustrup is a pervert."
Last edited by sage_gerard on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
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Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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i get what you are saying, and i am sorry you went through it. my parents chose to stay together, and in the midst of the abuse and dysfunction i used to pray for them to divorce. people sometimes suck, and the actual composition of the family doesn't seem to have much of an impact on that. i'd like to see people putting their children first when making decisions. often divorce is the best option on that front.
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sage_gerard
Snowy Owl
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Age: 22
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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It sounds like we had very different experiences!  Every day I wish my parent's divorce never happened, since so much was lost when it did.
When I meet the woman I wish to spend my life with, I hope to be cautious and perceptive enough to be ready for the sacrifices that will come. After what my siblings and I went through, I would never want my kids to deal with not having a feeling of unity in their lives.
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LKL
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Age: 37
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Joker wrote: | | TM wrote: | | Tequila wrote: | | TM wrote: | | You are free to argue that, my understanding of communism is that its a revolutionary socialist movement that AIMS to create a classless, moneyless and stateless social structure, but the fact that such has not yet been accomplished by the revolution does not mean that a system or country is not communist. |
Don't communists call Communist countries "state capitalist" or somesuch? Sounds like a nice, easy get-out clause. |
Communism is an ideology that is very vulnerable to "The end justifies the means" types of thinking, therefore attempts at creating what Marx called "Pure communism" have a tendency to be anything but the Utopia communism is supposed to be. However, adherents to the communist religion tend to view anything short of "pure communism" as envisioned by Marx as not being communism.
It's a bit like saying "Only 98% of the inhabitants in our country are in the military, so we aren't really militaristic" |
Communism is a good idea in theory but really hard to put into practice. |
QFT |
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LKL
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Age: 37
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| sage_gerard wrote: | | DW_a_mom wrote: | The kinds of families that break up like that are usually one's that shouldn't have been together in the first place.
When you have real choices, you usually make better one's. |
Wow. Thanks. That made my parents' divorce much easier to process. My parents were nothing more but fake choices because they were doomed to fail! Never mind victims of circumstance, the only "real" choices are soulmates! |
That's a bit of a false dichotomy, Sage. My parents divorced when I was 14, and it was better for all of us. People can be 'not good' at living together, but still be good people. |
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LKL
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Age: 37
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| sage_gerard wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | i don't really get why the nuclear family is something to cherish. it's an old paradigm, and not a universal one. times are changing, and it is not necessarily bad. |
I was speaking in the context of when the nuclear family was considered the atomic unit of civilization. I did not say I felt it should be the standard today.
However, I do feel a family is important, regardless of its structure. I will be offering a son's perspective on this, but I must admit it is more emotional and rhetorical than rational. I do not want to get too personal, so I'll avoid sharing too much of my background. All I'll say is that my parents care so much about their post-divorce disputes with each other that they often do not see how it makes me feel.
Please understand I really wish I had a close-knit family. I have weak emotional connections in my family that are dwarfed by bonds with my friends. This bothers me because it makes me feel as if being related to someone directly by blood does not mean they won't feel like strangers. Even if society's idea of the family changes, I feel it is vitally important that a solid one exists for kids. The alternative is emotionally taxing, but it is likely to happen when parents focus more on their own independence than the relationships they've developed.
After your mother changes her last name to not share yours or your father's, mediating hundreds of phone calls between parents that refuse to talk to one another (even when it comes to issues that concern you), and listening to your father threaten to physically hurt your mother to your face, you start to secretly wish they did not have the choice to break up. You wish that they could not simply toss aside their responsibilities as parents. You wish that they could understand that in their pursuit for liberty, they destroy any emotional safety net for their kids that they once agreed to maintain.
I want emotional connections to my own blood. I can't really explain why, but I really do. |
That's harsh, I feel for you. My brother and I were lucky that our parents kept the fight mostly to themselves, and we were able to see both parents on a weekly basis. |
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sage_gerard
Snowy Owl
Joined: Apr 21, 2012
Age: 22
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| LKL wrote: | | sage_gerard wrote: | | DW_a_mom wrote: | The kinds of families that break up like that are usually one's that shouldn't have been together in the first place.
When you have real choices, you usually make better one's. |
Wow. Thanks. That made my parents' divorce much easier to process. My parents were nothing more but fake choices because they were doomed to fail! Never mind victims of circumstance, the only "real" choices are soulmates! |
That's a bit of a false dichotomy, Sage. My parents divorced when I was 14, and it was better for all of us. People can be 'not good' at living together, but still be good people. |
Maybe so, but divorce was not the best option for my family. As someone who did not have a good experience with a divorce, I got the impression from DW's comment that my parents did not make "real" choices. It felt personal for me, so forgive my reactive sarcasm.
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LKL
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 22, 2007
Age: 37
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| sage_gerard wrote: | | LKL wrote: | | sage_gerard wrote: | | DW_a_mom wrote: | The kinds of families that break up like that are usually one's that shouldn't have been together in the first place.
When you have real choices, you usually make better one's. |
Wow. Thanks. That made my parents' divorce much easier to process. My parents were nothing more but fake choices because they were doomed to fail! Never mind victims of circumstance, the only "real" choices are soulmates! |
That's a bit of a false dichotomy, Sage. My parents divorced when I was 14, and it was better for all of us. People can be 'not good' at living together, but still be good people. |
Maybe so, but divorce was not the best option for my family. As someone who did not have a good experience with a divorce, I got the impression from DW's comment that my parents did not make "real" choices. It felt personal for me, so forgive my reactive sarcasm. |
I think what she was trying to say is that divorce *allows* real choices, that in places where divorce is illegal, people can't make those choices.
Hope things work out for you. |
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sage_gerard
Snowy Owl
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Age: 22
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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I appreciate that. 
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Terlingua
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Apr 18, 2012
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| LKL wrote: | Terlingua, several people made posts early in this thread pointing out that feminism has broadened the scope of practice for men in this society, allowing them to take greater part in childcare and to have non-stereotypical interests like cooking or decorating.Your response was, 'well, men have done that in these other cultures deep in the past, and there's this famous Chinese guy who likes to cook.'
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I gave an example that happened to be old, in order to demonstrate that men engaging in those activities were nothing new. The airline steward/stewardess example was considerably more recent. Male nurses, by that time more frequently called orderlies, were common well up into the 1960's as they were valued for their lifting ability. Body mechanics helped to remedy the need for brute force, as did hydraulic lifts. My point was that feminism had not 'given' this to men.
Beyond that, why do people automatically attribute things like professions to sexual discrimination in the first place? Cultures change, shift, and often reshape to resemble the past. Clothing trends sometimes repeat. Why does anyone assume that a social or cultural trend is sexual discrimination?
| LKL wrote: | | I then asked, are we talking about what feminism, as a movement that emerged in western culture over the last 100 years, has done for western culture over the last 100 years, or are we asking what feminism has done for men that's new on the face of the earth? You have not answered. |
Lets for sake of argument restrict it to the last 100 years. While we are at it, lets please not be so hasty as to accredit something to some or other philosophy unless there is a direct indictable link. "Men can wear pantyhose because of feminism" probably is not a good example. "A petition by feminists demanding more federal funding for breast & prostate cancer research" would be ideal. "And as a result of women getting custody of the child in divorce cases over 80% of the time, 80% of divorced fathers can now work longer hours without the regret of neglecting to spend time with their children, because feminism helps everyone!" and its casual and circumstantial ilk I will continue to ignore. Thank you. |
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Terlingua
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Apr 18, 2012
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | By its nature, challenging the definitions of women's social roles and what they're allowed to be/not allowed to be it also challenges that for men - whether by the same people or different, just by contagion. |
Change and benefit are entirely different things though. I am not asking how feminism changes things for men, but rather how it supposedly benefits men. |
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