WilliamWDelaney
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 27, 2011
Posts: 1201
|
 Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:33 am Post subject: Why theism doesn't work for everybody |
 |
|
If you are a theist of any kind, you hold the belief that the world was created by an all-powerful being, and you believe that human and natural events are guided and watched over by this being. You also probably believe there is a life after death, but this is a slightly different topic. Anyway, this belief is so entrenched in human society that, to some theists, it is almost inconceivable that someone could not believe in it.
Now, ideas theists have tried to give me in order to explain their belief and also to try to convince me of it include pointing out something, like a tree, and asking, "how do you think that got there?" Well, I know better than to give the obvious answer, like saying, "it's most likely that a squirrel buried a nut there or something, but it's hard to say." That would prove that I have missed the point. The point of this is that theists see living things in general as something grand and wondrous, and it seems almost appalling to suggest that it all happens by accident, without purpose. It seems like such a waste, and it's a bit of a let-down to think that it is all just a bunch of particles colliding in space.
Therefore, the thing that needs explaining is why atheists don't run into this obstacle. The truth is that there is no one explanation that fits everybody. Modern atheists and "agnostics" sometimes observe something that is almost like a sort of pantheism. Consider yourself the atheist, and you are looking out on the cosmos. Our little yellow dwarf is one of about 300 billion stars in the Milky Way, and each of those stars is light years apart. The Milky Way itself is a tiny disc, possibly with a black hole at its center, whirling around in an immense vacuum amid possibly billions of other variously shaped galaxies, and each of those galaxies are inconceivable distances from each other, at once racing away from each other and accelerating toward each other.
The way atheists of this kind see it, the human consciousness is a very small part of the cosmos. In their minds, there actually is something immense behind it, but it feels almost sinful to ascribe human-like qualities to it. Your human-like image of God is just another "golden calf," really. What is going on "out there" is more incredible and more important than the entire human race, and it is an incredible privilege that we are being given a chance to just...watch it for a while.
Well, after that, doesn't it seem tawdry to look at a tree and demand, "how can that be?" It is such a small thing in a more grand arena. Of course, I can't really account for atheists who think of things in a different light, and there are more of those than there are minds like my own.
By extension, though, this mindset makes it very easy to come to grips with your mortality. You know that, no matter what, the universe will keep boiling along just fine without you there to watch it. All of the measly little injustices and disappointments of your life will be washed away by time. In the end, all is clean. In the end, you can rest. It's really quite peaceful.
Anyway, that was my little effort at explanation. I hope it helps somebody.
Last edited by WilliamWDelaney on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
Oodain
big chief wulla bamboom alakaway
Joined: Jan 31, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 5022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
great post and i share your sentiment.
_________________
//through chaos comes complexity//
the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Subotai
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 25, 2010
Posts: 1036
Location: 日本
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
_________________
...and his prowess on the battlefield is surpassed only by his skill in the bed chamber. |
|
| Back to top |
|
AceOfSpades
Deeds not words
Joined: Feb 12, 2006
Posts: 3647
Location: Sean Penn, Cambodia
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
 . I really wish you were this levelheaded more often. I find your posts very insightful and well thought out when you are in that state of mind. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Grebels
Toucan
Joined: Mar 06, 2012
Posts: 270
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Your human-like image of God is just another "golden calf," really. What is going on "out there" is more incredible and more important than the entire human race, and it is an incredible privilege that we are being given a chance to just...watch it for a while. |
We believers cannot even begin to understand. It is completely outside of our cognizance. The theology is that Jesus is "the express image of His person". A way for us to understand God. But, yes, believers very often fit God into the scale of things they are comfortable with. Of course, I don't want to speak for atheists, but I can hear them now asking how we can believe in a God we cannot understand, let alone trust Him with our lives.
I am not at all sure I'd want to discuss the meaning of mankind's existence on this site. However, I do believe that the suffering some endure, not just the believers, but say those who were tortured and killed in Cambodia, counts.
You have given us an intelligent well reasoned thread. |
|
| Back to top |
|
WilliamWDelaney
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 27, 2011
Posts: 1201
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Grebels wrote: | | We believers cannot even begin to understand. It is completely outside of our cognizance. The theology is that Jesus is "the express image of His person". A way for us to understand God. But, yes, believers very often fit God into the scale of things they are comfortable with. Of course, I don't want to speak for atheists, but I can hear them now asking how we can believe in a God we cannot understand, let alone trust Him with our lives. |
I really think that the best way to grasp what goes through the head of an atheist is to go through the exercise of thinking about our planet in the context of the star it orbits around, our star in the context of its galaxy, and the galaxy in the context of the cosmos. It's a very simple exercise, but I think it might give a religious person a start on understanding how some people might prefer to comprehend the universe and their place in it without resorting to theism.
| Quote: | | You have given us an intelligent well reasoned thread. |
Thank you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Subotai
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 25, 2010
Posts: 1036
Location: 日本
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| WilliamWDelaney wrote: | | Grebels wrote: | | We believers cannot even begin to understand. It is completely outside of our cognizance. The theology is that Jesus is "the express image of His person". A way for us to understand God. But, yes, believers very often fit God into the scale of things they are comfortable with. Of course, I don't want to speak for atheists, but I can hear them now asking how we can believe in a God we cannot understand, let alone trust Him with our lives. |
I really think that the best way to grasp what goes through the head of an atheist is to go through the exercise of thinking about our planet in the context of the star it orbits around, our star in the context of its galaxy, and the galaxy in the context of the cosmos. It's a very simple exercise, but I think it might give a religious person a start on understanding how some people might prefer to comprehend the universe and their place in it without resorting to theism.
| Quote: | | You have given us an intelligent well reasoned thread. |
Thank you. |
This is why I am not a theist, the idea that we have the slightest clue on the truth of those matters seems too absurd.
_________________
...and his prowess on the battlefield is surpassed only by his skill in the bed chamber. |
|
| Back to top |
|
UnLoser
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 29, 2012
Posts: 623
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| In my opinion, the "How did that tree get there? It was God." argument is totally invalid. The universe is strange and incomprehensible, so it's natural to try and make sense of it, but introducing an even more strange and incomprehensible figure(God) does not help make sense of it. It only complicates matters further. |
|
| Back to top |
|
CrazyCatLord
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 25, 2011
Posts: 2177
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
Very insightful  That's exactly what the atheist naturalist paradigm feels like. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Kjas
Onçinha
Joined: Feb 27, 2012
Age: 23
Posts: 4914
Location: the place I'm from doesn't exist anymore
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well done, I must say.
| Grebels wrote: | | I am not at all sure I'd want to discuss the meaning of mankind's existence on this site. However, I do believe that the suffering some endure, not just the believers, but say those who were tortured and killed in Cambodia, counts. |
It counts if we (humankind) choose to make it count. We can choose to learn from our mistakes or we can choose to re-do them all over again.
Why anyone would ignore thousands of years of human history only to reinvent the wheel is beyond me, yet many of us do. Many of us are happy to use history lessons (like having and using a refrigerator or the wheel), but when it comes to others such as genocide, we would rather repeat them. That is a choice we make, we could also have chosen to learn it the first time around.
We choose not to learn from those who have suffered, but we could just as easily make the other choice.
_________________
Diagnostic Tools and Resources for Women with AS: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt211004.html |
|
| Back to top |
|
Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I can understand that theism will not work for some peopel but that gives the non theist no right to insult people who are theist and believe in God. I keep my religion to myself I don't go around preaching to people about my faith your not going to see me saying things like ye are gonig to Hell when you die. And the reason I do not do that is for one main reason my I keep my religion to myself I have no problem with non theists but I do have a problem when the non theist will insult me when I do not brang up their non beliefs. I value honor and respect and their is no honor or respect when a theist or non theist insults the other persons beliefs or opinon. |
|
| Back to top |
|
roronoa79
Raven
Joined: Jan 23, 2012
Age: 21
Posts: 112
Location: Zionsville, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I agree with the first post and admire its rationality and maturity. However, said post (as well as what seems to be the majority of the discussion on this forum) is too centered in its philosophy around the Abrahamic conception of God. I find it curious that the atheists of this forum seem so fixated on deconstructing such a specific theology, when they could be doing much more by casting off such preconceptions (or moving away from such conventional ideas--whichever the case is). |
|
| Back to top |
|
Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I do find it odd that atheists always attack the abrahamic religions the most and btw those religions have been around since the Iron Age not the bronze age. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Lord_Gareth
Velociraptor
Joined: Feb 21, 2012
Posts: 440
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| roronoa79 wrote: | | I agree with the first post and admire its rationality and maturity. However, said post (as well as what seems to be the majority of the discussion on this forum) is too centered in its philosophy around the Abrahamic conception of God. I find it curious that the atheists of this forum seem so fixated on deconstructing such a specific theology, when they could be doing much more by casting off such preconceptions (or moving away from such conventional ideas--whichever the case is). |
Most other religions, with the possible exception of Hinduism and the definite exception of Scientology, don't cause problems re: politics and people's personal lives. I mean, when's the last time you heard of an unjust law being pushed through by a Vodoo lobby? Wicca? You get the gist.
_________________
Et in Arcadia ego. - "Even in Arcadia, there am I." |
|
| Back to top |
|
Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
Posts: 7593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Lord_Gareth wrote: | | roronoa79 wrote: | | I agree with the first post and admire its rationality and maturity. However, said post (as well as what seems to be the majority of the discussion on this forum) is too centered in its philosophy around the Abrahamic conception of God. I find it curious that the atheists of this forum seem so fixated on deconstructing such a specific theology, when they could be doing much more by casting off such preconceptions (or moving away from such conventional ideas--whichever the case is). |
Most other religions, with the possible exception of Hinduism and the definite exception of Scientology, don't cause problems re: politics and people's personal lives. I mean, when's the last time you heard of an unjust law being pushed through by a Vodoo lobby? Wicca? You get the gist. |
Really what about confucius playing a role in chinese politics. Or other religions of Asia including the Baha faith playing a role in politicis and helping make state laws that are unethical. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
