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Asp-Z
Clockwork Planet
Joined: Dec 07, 2009
Posts: 11016
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 Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| From what I've read, SSRIs can increase suicidal thoughts in certain people. If this happens you should probably go to your doctor and get different meds though. |
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Sweetleaf
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Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
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Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Asp-Z wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | I actually think it is kind of an important part of the story since many people with aspergers suffer from bullying...and co-morbids like depression and anxiety. So it does have its role regardless of how small that role is. I mean maybe if he didn't have AS he would not have been bullied....I am sure if I was normal I wouldn't have been bullied. But yeah it is important that he had AS.....how does someone killing them-self because they could not take the abuse anymore give autism a bad name? To me it gives those committing the abuse a bad name for driving someone who already had difficulties(depression, anxiety and AS) to that point a bad name.
So no autism does not cause suicide...but it can make one come off as different which sadly seems to attract bullies, but it is more the bullying, depression, anxiety and that sort of thing that causes the suicide, but being different for whatever f**** up reason seems to attract jerks. |
You can't say that with any level of certainty. Bullies look for any excuse to make someone a victim, and if it wasn't the Asperger's it could very well have been something else. People get bullied over things as stupid as their hair colour, it doesn't take much of a real "reason" for it to happen. |
I can't say what with any level of certainty...that many people with aspergers suffer from bullying and co-morbids like anxiety and depression, because I actually am pretty certain that is true. I also already acknowledged that there are various reasons people bully, like I said in my case no one knew I had 'aspergers' so that was not really a factor, though it was the cause of why I was different from everyone else......but they didn't know that, they just felt it was good reason to bully me I guess regardless of the cause.
And my point that bullying should not happen still stands.
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Asp-Z
Clockwork Planet
Joined: Dec 07, 2009
Posts: 11016
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Of course bullying shouldn't happen, that goes without saying. All I'm saying that Asperger's doesn't mean you'll certainly be bullied and not having Asperger's doesn't mean it certainly wouldn't happen.
I'm curious, do you have any source for the claim that depression is common comorbid for autism? I'm mainly asking for personal reasons really, I'm being assessed for it soon and I think it's common amongst Aspies too but I've not been able to find any solid data on it. |
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14799
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| Asp-Z wrote: | Of course bullying shouldn't happen, that goes without saying. All I'm saying that Asperger's doesn't mean you'll certainly be bullied and not having Asperger's doesn't mean it certainly wouldn't happen.
True.
I'm curious, do you have any source for the claim that depression is common comorbid for autism? I'm mainly asking for personal reasons really, I'm being assessed for it soon and I think it's common amongst Aspies too but I've not been able to find any solid data on it. |
Well lots of people here have depression....and I've read from online sources and in both the psychology text books I used when I was still in college that anxiety and depression are common co-morbids of aspergers.
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It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
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Asp-Z
Clockwork Planet
Joined: Dec 07, 2009
Posts: 11016
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| Sweetleaf wrote: | | Asp-Z wrote: | Of course bullying shouldn't happen, that goes without saying. All I'm saying that Asperger's doesn't mean you'll certainly be bullied and not having Asperger's doesn't mean it certainly wouldn't happen.
True.
I'm curious, do you have any source for the claim that depression is common comorbid for autism? I'm mainly asking for personal reasons really, I'm being assessed for it soon and I think it's common amongst Aspies too but I've not been able to find any solid data on it. |
Well lots of people here have depression....and I've read from online sources and in both the psychology text books I used when I was still in college that anxiety and depression are common co-morbids of aspergers. |
Just looked it up again and Wikipedia says: "Phobias, depression and other psychopathological disorders have often been described along with ASD but this has not been assessed systematically."
It does make sense though. |
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PastFixations
One who will open the door.
Joined: Sep 22, 2011
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Asp-Z
Clockwork Planet
Joined: Dec 07, 2009
Posts: 11016
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| PastFixations wrote: | | Don't believe everything Wikipedia tells you. |
Well if you can provide some evidence for it I'd be interested. I'm genuinely curious, I'm not trying to challenge anyone. |
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MjrMajorMajor
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Joined: Jan 16, 2012
Age: 37
Posts: 3031
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | heavenlyabyss wrote: | | Bullies deserve to burn in hell. I don't care what anyone thinks of me for saying this. |
Well, my only disagreements would be philosophical - ie. a hell for people to be cast into makes no sense and while I've been forced back into mind/body dualism - even with a soul there's still no difference between the environment and how people treat each other. When I think about the people who bullied me as a kid though I get sick at the thought of them apologizing to me when if it had been a different school it would have simply been the same stuff different faces and, by society's standards, I brought in on myself for being weak. For people to feel bad about it after the fact, whether in one of our cases or, in a real tragic sense - this case, means that no one learned anything though - ie. they moralized it and the more they moralize it the more they make the situation impervious to improvement. |
I don't understand how weighing the morality of the situation makes it impervious to improvement. Am I misunderstanding the point you were making? It seems like you're saying any attempts to change society for the better are futile, because of the actions of some bad seeds. I don't see being victimized as weakness, but those who initiate attacks on others are weak and lash out to compensate. It can be a lack of self respect fueling both sides of the coin. |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14832
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| MjrMajorMajor wrote: |
I don't understand how weighing the morality of the situation makes it impervious to improvement. Am I misunderstanding the point you were making? It seems like you're saying any attempts to change society for the better are futile, because of the actions of some bad seeds. I don't see being victimized as weakness, but those who initiate attacks on others are weak and lash out to compensate. It can be a lack of self respect fueling both sides of the coin. |
Its a problem because if it stays moralized it typically never leaves the emotional or self-judgement sphere. When a person realizes they were mean to a sibling, neighbor, cousin, or someone they went to school with, apologize to them, and write it off in their own head that they had a character flaw - not only did they never actually learned what happened or why, they just flushed an invaluable lesson on how to remedy the problem down the drain with that thinking. |
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cyberdad
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 22, 2011
Age: 45
Posts: 1612
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Sweetleaf wrote: | | cyberdad wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | cyberdad wrote: | | Asp-Z wrote: | I'm just making a general point about the media and their coverage of such stories. They always give autism or Asperger's a mention when someone who has either gets bullied to the point where they kill themselves but this happens a lot to people without autism as well and it's just not an important detail to the story. It gives autism as a whole an even worse name, which is not a good thing.
Autism on its own does not cause people to commit suicide, bullies (who should be thrown in jail for life) and depression caused by the bullies (and perhaps other factors) is what makes people commit suicide. |
Exactly, I am aware in legal circles there is a general rule of thumb that autistic individuals are more likely to commit crime because they lack empathy
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1810117
This unfortunately make crime committed by autistics and aspergers a newsworthy story. It give autism a bad name in the public eye.
On the matter of suicide, even if the boy was taking anti-depressants, the trigger was the bullying, not the drugs. |
Well depending on how the anti-depressants effected him they could have contributed...I had a bad reaction to SSRIs so I'd believe others could have negative experiences with them to. |
What I'm saying is the SSRIs make certain people more predisposed to suicidal thoughts if they are confronted by specific triggers like bullying. |
Yeah not sure there has to be a specific trigger for SSRI's to make things worse, there wasn't when I tried them......but I'd say the SSRI was a possible factor, the bullying was a definite factor.........and well depression can also contribute. |
SSRIs cause more serotonin to be available in the blood stream that inhibit over-sensitivity to triggers (getting punished., noise etc) as well as avoidance motivation, thus reducing anxiety in an autistic person and making them feel more comfortable, particularly in a new environment. The side effects that lead to suicide relate to comorbid mental health conditions that are exacerbated with more serotonin. |
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14799
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| cyberdad wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | cyberdad wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | cyberdad wrote: | | Asp-Z wrote: | I'm just making a general point about the media and their coverage of such stories. They always give autism or Asperger's a mention when someone who has either gets bullied to the point where they kill themselves but this happens a lot to people without autism as well and it's just not an important detail to the story. It gives autism as a whole an even worse name, which is not a good thing.
Autism on its own does not cause people to commit suicide, bullies (who should be thrown in jail for life) and depression caused by the bullies (and perhaps other factors) is what makes people commit suicide. |
Exactly, I am aware in legal circles there is a general rule of thumb that autistic individuals are more likely to commit crime because they lack empathy
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1810117
This unfortunately make crime committed by autistics and aspergers a newsworthy story. It give autism a bad name in the public eye.
On the matter of suicide, even if the boy was taking anti-depressants, the trigger was the bullying, not the drugs. |
Well depending on how the anti-depressants effected him they could have contributed...I had a bad reaction to SSRIs so I'd believe others could have negative experiences with them to. |
What I'm saying is the SSRIs make certain people more predisposed to suicidal thoughts if they are confronted by specific triggers like bullying. |
Yeah not sure there has to be a specific trigger for SSRI's to make things worse, there wasn't when I tried them......but I'd say the SSRI was a possible factor, the bullying was a definite factor.........and well depression can also contribute. |
SSRIs cause more serotonin to be available in the blood stream that inhibit over-sensitivity to triggers (getting punished., noise etc) as well as avoidance motivation, thus reducing anxiety in an autistic person and making them feel more comfortable, particularly in a new environment. The side effects that lead to suicide relate to comorbid mental health conditions that are exacerbated with more serotonin. |
Well that's not what it did to me...it made me more anxious, very uncomfortable and quite paranoid and rather psychotic...SSRIs do not always help depression or anxiety and can apparently make it worse in some cases.
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It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
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heavenlyabyss
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Joined: Sep 10, 2011
Posts: 530
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | heavenlyabyss wrote: | | Bullies deserve to burn in hell. I don't care what anyone thinks of me for saying this. |
Well, my only disagreements would be philosophical - ie. a hell for people to be cast into makes no sense and while I've been forced back into mind/body dualism - even with a soul there's still no difference between the environment and how people treat each other. When I think about the people who bullied me as a kid though I get sick at the thought of them apologizing to me when if it had been a different school it would have simply been the same stuff different faces and, by society's standards, I brought in on myself for being weak. For people to feel bad about it after the fact, whether in one of our cases or, in a real tragic sense - this case, means that no one learned anything though - ie. they moralized it and the more they moralize it the more they make the situation impervious to improvement. |
Well, obviously I don't think bullies deserve to go to hell. I was speaking emotionally and not literally. I was turning the argument around on it's head by saying something a bully would say, not because I genuinely believe that but because bullies (actually abusers are what I am really talking about) live in a different world and cannot be reasoned with.
I'm talking about chronic bullies/abusers who have no remorse - not your typical school-age children who aren't fully mature and may feel remorse for their actions.
Bullying is a big problem in school and the reason it is such a big problem is that adults turn a blind eye to it. |
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MjrMajorMajor
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 16, 2012
Age: 37
Posts: 3031
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| techstepgenr8tion wrote: | | MjrMajorMajor wrote: |
I don't understand how weighing the morality of the situation makes it impervious to improvement. Am I misunderstanding the point you were making? It seems like you're saying any attempts to change society for the better are futile, because of the actions of some bad seeds. I don't see being victimized as weakness, but those who initiate attacks on others are weak and lash out to compensate. It can be a lack of self respect fueling both sides of the coin. |
Its a problem because if it stays moralized it typically never leaves the emotional or self-judgement sphere. When a person realizes they were mean to a sibling, neighbor, cousin, or someone they went to school with, apologize to them, and write it off in their own head that they had a character flaw - not only did they never actually learned what happened or why, they just flushed an invaluable lesson on how to remedy the problem down the drain with that thinking. |
I see where you were coming from now. I'll never watch My Name is Earl the same way again..  |
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techstepgenr8tion
that chatty American
Joined: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 14832
Location: A beautiful vector among many
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| heavenlyabyss wrote: |
Well, obviously I don't think bullies deserve to go to hell. I was speaking emotionally and not literally. I was turning the argument around on it's head by saying something a bully would say, not because I genuinely believe that but because bullies (actually abusers are what I am really talking about) live in a different world and cannot be reasoned with.
I'm talking about chronic bullies/abusers who have no remorse - not your typical school-age children who aren't fully mature and may feel remorse for their actions. |
Well, what I meant when I said that hell makes no sense, I mean it from the standpoint that no one really can have culpability for who they are to that extent. Just because the world makes monsters doesn't mean that we don't still have to punish, redirect, or in worst case throw them in jail - even give them the chair, just that eternal accountability for identity - something inherently forced on us - makes little or no sense. |
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cyberdad
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 22, 2011
Age: 45
Posts: 1612
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Sweetleaf wrote: | | cyberdad wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | cyberdad wrote: | | Sweetleaf wrote: | | cyberdad wrote: | | Asp-Z wrote: | I'm just making a general point about the media and their coverage of such stories. They always give autism or Asperger's a mention when someone who has either gets bullied to the point where they kill themselves but this happens a lot to people without autism as well and it's just not an important detail to the story. It gives autism as a whole an even worse name, which is not a good thing.
Autism on its own does not cause people to commit suicide, bullies (who should be thrown in jail for life) and depression caused by the bullies (and perhaps other factors) is what makes people commit suicide. |
Exactly, I am aware in legal circles there is a general rule of thumb that autistic individuals are more likely to commit crime because they lack empathy
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1810117
This unfortunately make crime committed by autistics and aspergers a newsworthy story. It give autism a bad name in the public eye.
On the matter of suicide, even if the boy was taking anti-depressants, the trigger was the bullying, not the drugs. |
Well depending on how the anti-depressants effected him they could have contributed...I had a bad reaction to SSRIs so I'd believe others could have negative experiences with them to. |
What I'm saying is the SSRIs make certain people more predisposed to suicidal thoughts if they are confronted by specific triggers like bullying. |
Yeah not sure there has to be a specific trigger for SSRI's to make things worse, there wasn't when I tried them......but I'd say the SSRI was a possible factor, the bullying was a definite factor.........and well depression can also contribute. |
SSRIs cause more serotonin to be available in the blood stream that inhibit over-sensitivity to triggers (getting punished., noise etc) as well as avoidance motivation, thus reducing anxiety in an autistic person and making them feel more comfortable, particularly in a new environment. The side effects that lead to suicide relate to comorbid mental health conditions that are exacerbated with more serotonin. |
Well that's not what it did to me...it made me more anxious, very uncomfortable and quite paranoid and rather psychotic...SSRIs do not always help depression or anxiety and can apparently make it worse in some cases. |
True, but the evidence points to comorbid conditions exacerbated by the SSRIs not necessarily the autism per say. Overall the effect of serotonin on the brain and CNS is still work in progress. |
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